(2009-02-22) — In what’s shaping up as the first potential rift between Congressional Democrats and the Obama administration, some of the president’s most stalwart supporters have complained privately that his 2010 budget proposal is unfair to poor and middle-income citizens.
“As everyone knows, paying taxes is even more patriotic than serving in the military,” said one unnamed Democrat House member, “and yet Obama’s budget grants the privilege of higher taxes mostly to those earning more than $250,000 per year, or who inherit large estates, or who make wise investments. This is tantamount to questioning the patriotism of the working class. Our phones are lighting up with calls from the home district…people offended that they’re not included.”
The Democrat caucus has quietly sought a White House meeting to insist that the bottom 50 percent of wage earners, who now pay only three percent of federal income taxes, “be allowed to share the honor and glory of the top 10 percent who currently pay 70 percent of taxes.”
“If you love your country,” the anonymous lawmaker said, “you’re bound to feel cheated by a budget that treats you like someone who won’t salute the flag, or wear Old Glory on your lapel.”
73 responses so far ↓
1 onlineanalyst // Feb 22, 2009 at 8:39 am
For the top 10 percent who are paying 70 percent of the taxes, the issue of taxation without representation is becoming ever more apparent.
Obama and his minions are organizing their You-Tube-opia to silence this minority, urging his brown shirt sheep to intimidate the rebellious to pay up and shut up. Robert Gibbs is taking names, starting with Santelli. Obama is taking care of Rush Limbaugh. Rahm Emanuel is sharpening his steak knife. Pelosi is flying around, oblivious as ever as she tackles America’s economic situation by protecting field mice.
Taking his cue to cut the deficit from Bubba Clinton, Ackbar plans to gut our defenses because, since The One’s ascension, “every body loves Raymond”-er, Obama.
The current Keystone Kops running Washington because they “won” learned everything that they know from kindergarten. Those of us awake to reality have graduated well beyond those eating paste days.
2 Hawkeye // Feb 22, 2009 at 8:55 am
you’re bound to feel cheated by a budget that treats you like someone who won’t salute the flag, or wear Old Glory on your lapel…
Ohh! You mean like Obama??
Great stuff as usual Scott. Thanks for bringing a smile to my morning.
3 Hawkeye // Feb 22, 2009 at 8:59 am
Jameson Lewis 3rd,
If my calculations are correct, then today is your birthday, so…
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!
If my calculations are wrong… please ignore my outburst.
BTW, does anybody have JL3’s e-mail address? If so, please send it along. Thanks!
4 Hawkeye // Feb 22, 2009 at 9:04 am
OLA,
Speak for yourself. If I had some paste, I might eat it… Naw! Just kidding.
Hope all is well. God Bless.
5 mindknumbed kid // Feb 22, 2009 at 10:27 am
When we all are equally poor, who will pay the taxes? Certainly not this elitist ruling class that is running the show, we know they all cheat in that area - and get away with it. I would think that these clowns a little further down the road of history past the retribution and class warfare plans at what kind of government will be in charge…Oh, right, they are, change has come and America is gone.
6 onlineanalyst // Feb 22, 2009 at 10:29 am
As commenter Joe Caps observed over at HotAir:
“Let not him who is houseless pull down the house of another, but let him work diligently and build one for himself, thus by example assuring that his own shall be safe from violence when built.”
Abraham Lincoln
We will never hear Barry use that one from his “idol.”
7 Fred Sinclair // Feb 22, 2009 at 11:52 am
AMAZING PHOTO
I found a picture of an iceberg, it made me think of the usurper.
I read that only 1/10th of an iceberg is visible above the water. The pic seems to support that. It was an iceberg like this, I suppose that caused the “Unsinkable” ship; “The Titanic” to suffer structural damage
resulting in the ship sinking. I can imagine that the Captain of “The Titanic” thought “No big deal, I’ve been told that this ship is “Unsinkable.”
At first no one was concerned but as the early hours passed it became apparent that they were in deep (no pun intended) trouble. I look at the photo and see America’s “Ship of
State” has just hit an iceberg. President Obama is that portion of the Liberal iceberg we easily see. The overall Obama Administration is the 9/10th not so visible.
It could be that President Obama’s “Porkulus” Bill is the American Ship of State’s iceberg that we’ve just hit. The Economy suffered severe structural damage as President Bush and his Administration made repeated attempts (11 at last count) to bring accountability and controls to the idiotic
sub prime mortgage scams Fanny Mae/Freddie Max, Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, A.I.G.
etc. all were stymied by the Democrats***ALL***!!!
Lehman Brothers collapsed, the rest were “bailed out” structural damage was severe.
Then along came Barry. In the first 30 days of his Presidency (there are those who call it that - virtually 100% Democrats plus RINO’s of course) he and his Administration (Harry Reed, Nancy Pelosi, Timothy Geithner, Barney Frank, etc., etc.) have inflicted the ripping tear that could sink America into the depths of then President Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s “Great Depression” only Obama’s “Great Depression” may be much worse.
The days of cutting out cardboard inserts for shoes because there’s no money to have them resoled may lie in our near future. There were Lawyers, Doctors and former bank presidents who stood on street corners selling apples for two cents each or three for a nickel. what they didn’t sell was the families supper that night.
Personally, though I was very young, I can recall “supper” was often a glass of milk (we had a cow) and a slab of cornbread. Inflation will run rampant. Today’s all ready inflated dollar which will buy forty three cents worth of what my 1950 dollar would buy. Within a short time your dollar of today will be worth what a quarter is worth today.
Todays worst error is to have money in the bank. Gold is up to over $900.00 an ounce. I only have a SS check, so I’m stuck. If I had money I’d buy Silver “common circulated” pre 1965 quarters (90% pure silver - Sterling is 92% pure silver if you have sterling tableware).
One thing Obama is telling the truth about, “It’s going to get worse before it gets better”.
Drastic problems call for drastic answers. I can only pray that enough Americans have the nerve and gall of our “Founding Fathers” who put everything on the line, including their lives. Will we once again hear “The shot heard ’round the world”?
8 onlineanalyst // Feb 22, 2009 at 2:31 pm
Over at Flopping Aces, Scott posts the following, beginning with a quotation from Obama. Scott’s analysis has links within that cite the facts and sources.
“Now, my administration inherited a deficit of over $1 trillion, but because we also inherited the most profound economic emergency since the Great Depression, doing little or nothing at all will result in even greater deficits, even greater job loss, even greater loss of income, and even greater loss of confidence.” - B. Obama
It might be technically true that his Presidential Administration inherited it, but he himself did not. No, he created it. Before being elected President Barack Obama was a Senator in a party that controlled both houses of Congress with a lame duck President. From 2006-present, the economy has faltered increasingly. However, the big crash happened while he was a senator at a time when Congress ruled the land (ie a lame duck Presidency). Yes, President Bush still had some power, but the majority of power was with the Democratic Party-controlled Congress; with Senator Obama’s Congress. Add to that the fact that President Bush was unusually catering to Pres-elect Obama after the November election, and not only did Bush consult with Obama, but at Obama’s urging he authorized the bailouts for insurance company AIG, for car corporations, and for the $700billion TARP fiasco. Obama himself URGED the first $700billion, the deficit “his administration” inherited was created by a budget that he and his party created in Congress just prior to his election as President.
No, Obama did not inherit the bad economy. He created it, and shame on him for misrepresenting its origin by sly wording rather than honest and genuine admission of mistakes. Bush had enough mistakes to take responsibility for, and the time for scapegoating passed when millions of Democrats (filled with the spirit of hope, change, and bi-partisan unity) booed the figurehead of 46% of the nation as his helicopter left the Inauguration.
Obama and the Democrats created the bad economy, it happened on their watch-because of their budgeting, their bailout demands, and their poor choices. Time to man up Mr President.
9 camojack // Feb 22, 2009 at 2:51 pm
Which reminds me, I have to mail out my tax return(s)…
10 Braveheart // Feb 22, 2009 at 3:09 pm
To quote Margaret Thatcher:
The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money to spend.
We’re getting there!
11 Darthmeister // Feb 22, 2009 at 3:56 pm
So, Scott, if according to the Obamatons paying taxes is more patriotic than serving in the military, then why aren’t more high-profile Demoncrats paid up on their taxes?
Would this make the Founding Fathers unpatriotic for protesting the Stamp Tax and embracing the Boston Tea Party? Well, I guess it would make them less patriotic to England and the tyrant King George.
12 Hawkeye // Feb 22, 2009 at 4:33 pm
Braveheart #10,
Don’t kid yourself. We’re still borrowing China’s money. When China runs out of money, then we’ll turn to some other country. Before long we’ll be breaking into our children’s piggy banks (oh, well I guess we’re already doing that… never mind).
13 Newsman // Feb 22, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Hawkeye:
China is the ‘only country’ that has sufficient cash funds to save us from ourselves.
They hate having to help us but they have no choice !
14 Ms RightWing, Ink // Feb 22, 2009 at 5:17 pm
Oh here we are-and the whole time I was rambling about on the last channel. Duh.
My MS is killing me again so I may have to make that trip to the ahem, bed sheet hotel for a steroid infusion.
Its a good thing I am not one of those high roller Daddy, er Mommy Warbucks or my downtime would hurt some person who needed my tax money.
Dang, I feel so unpatriotic. I think I will pay some taxes this year just to say I did my part. Do you think Uncle Sam will take a check for 49 cents.
15 Darthmeister // Feb 22, 2009 at 5:57 pm
It’s only a matter of time before Mr. Obama proposes tax breaks for the poor who pay no income taxes. It’s certainly in keeping with what passes for liberal “compassion” today.
Real News Headlines:
Obama: Afghan Terror Prisoners Have No Constitutional Rights.
Obama Upholds Bush’s Detainee Policy in Afghanistan
Obama In No Hurry to Move GITMO Prisoners
Study Finds Guantanamo Met Geneva Convention Standards Under Bush
As to the first three headlines, maybe Mr. Obama is starting to deal with the real world instead of pandering to his idjit Obamabots who put him in office.
16 Newsman // Feb 22, 2009 at 5:58 pm
Uncle Sam will gladly take your 49 cents and may well give you $250.00 back as change if you are on Social Security.
Aren’t you the lucky lady ?
17 egospeak // Feb 22, 2009 at 5:58 pm
ET,
I left you a followup comment on the “50 Billion In Cash Headed For Paid-Up Homeowners” thread.
To the point, or at least somewhat… It is my humble opinion that either 1) only income tax payers should be allowed to vote in any election held in America or 2) all wage earners should have to pay some income tax regardless how much or little they earn.
Regards,
18 Fred Sinclair // Feb 22, 2009 at 6:47 pm
o.t. -
If it were actually true, it would explain a lot. Unfortunately “Truth or Fiction” - “Snopes” and “Ask” all are in agreement that there is no Roswell New Mexico and all of the sworn depositions made by local ranchers were bogus and it was all designed by the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy, in co-operation with the U.S. Air Force to help get Right Winger Dwight D. Eisenhower elected President in 1952.
The year 1947
SHOULD GO DOWN IN HISTORY
Many of you will recall that on July 8, 1947, a little over
60 years ago, witnesses claim that an unidentified
flying object (UFO) with five aliens aboard, crashed unto
a sheep and cattle ranch just outside Roswell, New Mexico.
This is a well know incident that many say has
long been covered up by the U.S. Air Force and
other federal agencies and organizations.
However, what you may NOT know is that
in the month of April 1948, nine months later,
The following people were born:
Albert A. Gore Jr.
Hillary Rodham
John F. Kerry
William J. Clinton
Howard Dean
Nancy Pelosi
Dianne Feinstein
Charles E. Schumer
Barbara Boxer
I certainly hope this bit of information clears up a lot of things for you — it did me.
No wonder they support the bill to help illegal aliens!!!
NOW YOU KNOW!
(SATIRE MODE - OFF)
19 RedPepper // Feb 22, 2009 at 7:02 pm
Newsman #13: So China “has no choice” but to help us?
Doesn’t seem like Hillary is completely convinced they see it that way …
“We are in the same boat,” she said. “Thankfully, we are rowing in the same direction, toward landfall.”
Reminds me of that old joke about Tonto responding to the Lone Ranger : “Whaddaya mean ‘we’, paleface?”
20 onlineanalyst // Feb 22, 2009 at 8:06 pm
Heh;, RedPepper, Madame Hillary (!) has been rowing in the same direction as China ever since her hubby took those contributions.
21 R.A.M. // Feb 22, 2009 at 9:11 pm
Hawkeye re#2: Do you, or anyone else, know if Obama has been anywhere the National Anthem has player since his taking office? If so, did he hold his hand over his heart, or does STILL just stand there and look like a TRAITOR as he has in the past when it was played?
Ms. Rightwing posted the Ten Commandments on the previous thread. Has ANYONE in the MSM got the guts to ask the immoral “faux Christian” Obama, if he realizes his “Income redistribution plan” not only breaks the 10th Commandment, (to not COVET thy neighbor’s property), but goes even further, to TAKE it and give it to “those that won’t work”! GOD says, “-those that will not work, will NOT eat-”.
Even a fool should know, GOD will NOT allow a mere man, (Obama, and I might add, not MUCH of a man at that), to make HIM a liar. So, one way or another, the Obooba plan will NOT work for very long!
newsman asked on a previous thread what “Bible thumpers” had to do with politics or satire. I guess if people like him, (and unfortunately there are more each day), do not realize that America’s IMMORALITY is at the root cause of our woes, we will end up just as Rome did!
The “so called” intellectuals, keep treating the “symptoms” and ignore the “root cause”, or deny it completely.
22 R.A.M. // Feb 22, 2009 at 9:21 pm
OLA: Hillary loves China, if fact did she not take some with her when she and Bubba left the White House?
China will help us though, if we fail, who else would take all the LEAD laced products they send us? The way metals are rising against the dollar, maybe lead will be worth more soon?
Maybe we should call Hillary “old lead bottom”? It seems to fit.
Did you know that all these mercury filled “green” light bulbs the government is eventually going to make us change to are ONLY made in China?
China has no love for us, I agree. They know if we fail, so will they!
23 R.A.M. // Feb 22, 2009 at 9:38 pm
I am going to try to be a “kinder, gentler” poster from now on, so here is my way of extending an olive branch to the “left” and their “fan club” here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah0v0lOr698
Love, R.A.M.
24 R.A.M. // Feb 22, 2009 at 9:42 pm
This one is JUST FOR et’s boy! If only your Grandpa had used this on you and daddy-IF ONLY!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_mUz3RWKHQ&feature=related
25 mindknumbed kid // Feb 22, 2009 at 11:39 pm
Pray for a teenage boy named Blake. He is having real big trouble staying out of trouble, his parents are sending him to church (they need to be there just as badly) to try to help him get “straightened out”, he brought two other young guys with him today and they were all listening closely, one was apparently under conviction but did not act on it. I think it was probably the first time either of the two friends had been in church - ever. I teach their Sunday School class, they were polite and listened but I wasn’t sure as to how they were understanding, or if they cared about God at all. I need prayer too, these boys are at a crucial point in their young lives, only God can meet their needs.
26 Libby Gone // Feb 23, 2009 at 1:44 am
Who is poor and and why?
Move to Africa and then tell me about poor.
Goodness I grew up in a tornado magnet, until my parents made enough to raise us out of what today would be considerd absoulte poverty. Yet we never felt that way, had Mom and Dad ,and home cooked food and a roof. Now we have used the tools tought, work doesn’t hurt anyone. Thanks Mom and Dad!!!!!!!
27 Fred Sinclair // Feb 23, 2009 at 5:27 am
In case you wondered how it all came about………
HISTORY OF PC IN AMERICA…
VERY GOOD BACKGROUND INFO.
Date: 2/22/2009
Go here for video
http://vodpod.com/watch/207098-atlas-shrugs-the-history-of-political-correctness
28 mig // Feb 23, 2009 at 9:00 am
Completley off:
Here is the flight patterns of the world during a 24 hour period.
Now back to your regular programing.
29 boberinyetagain // Feb 23, 2009 at 9:40 am
I think the top 10% pay 70% of the taxes because they have 90% of the money so it seems that they may need to pony up and pay the same % of their income (until they pay the 90% of the taxes they owe)…or sent it to the Swiss to hide for them…oh wait, that might not work quite as well these days.
I hate it when a plan falls apart!
30 Left Coast-Right Mind // Feb 23, 2009 at 11:10 am
‘A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.’
That $13/paycheck I may be getting from the federal gov’mint…I’m wondering if Obama can just direct deposit that to Schwarzeneggar here in Caw-lee-foh-nyah with the tax hike enema our “representatives” just enacted.
My question to the Prince of Pennsylvania Ave. is why is he concentrating on only one side of the economic recovery coin? He says tax cuts alone won’t solve the problem, and he’s right…a drastic cut in government spending is also needed, something he promised to do, and has done the exact opposite with the ’stick-it-to-us’ plan. Oh right, intentions, not results…I forgot.
31 Deerslayer // Feb 23, 2009 at 11:13 am
bob#29
In2004 the top 10% supplied 69% of the GDP (www.visualizingeconomics.com) …so the did not have 90% of the money.
Are you saying that you’d be happy if I only paid 90% of the taxes that I owed?
Perhaps the stimulus bill does have something in it for me…just hadn’t found it yet!
32 Deerslayer // Feb 23, 2009 at 11:27 am
…and in 2006, the top 10% of wage earners paid 70.79% (www.ntu.org) of tax so it looks like they are pretty close to paying their fair share.
33 Newsman // Feb 23, 2009 at 11:39 am
I must say Fred that PC video is pretty interesting stuff which I was not at all familiar with.
Personally I really DETEST this PC baloney ! And I have wondered how it came to get to the fore as it is today ?
I am glad you posted that !
While I can’t recall the details, it reminds me of this guy who gives lectures on how the deterioration of a society can come about when you have all this multiculturalism business, like public signs in English and Spanish and that sort of thing.
I for one think that if you live in a given country/culture then you should publically adapt to that culture. You can do or talk in whatever language you want at home but in public adhere to the culture and customs of the country in which you live.
I am not good at explaining what I mean but you can gather my intent.
34 boberinyetagain // Feb 23, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Let’s say that’s right, that the top 10% make 70% of the money and pay 70% of the taxes (I don’t believe it but it’s possible). So, what’s the beef as they used to say…they shouldn’t be whining or asking for tax breaks, they’d be paying like everyone else in that case.
And, it’s a tad easier to bear a 10% tax increase on a salary of $250,000 than say a salary of $25,000 mainly because $25,000 wasn’t enough to pay the rent and eat in the same month whereas those making $250,000 might have to go out to eat 2 times less per month or even skip the latte’s altogether should then be asked to shoulder the “unfair” burden of more taxes.
I love how folks here seem willing to defend to the death the right for those folks making $250,000/year to keep much/more of that money. It’s as though you keep thinking…any day now I’ll make that much and then I’ll be glas I fought to let them keep it…
Right….show of hands…who here makes that much or even has such an amount in sight per year…in this lifetime? Seriously…how many of you? (and mind you I’ll say “good for you” but I’ll still suspect that you might be asked to pay a tad more in taxes and might even have less trouble than less fortunate folks)
More than that, of those who raise their hands…who can say that they “deserve” more than the guy that picks up their trash or cooks their meals or mows their lawn or any of a thousand more “menial” jobs.
The lives of the rich are already subsidized in a huge way by the poor, cigarette tax, legalized gambling (lottery included) etc…who among the rich plays the lottery? Another show of hands…
35 BlackLion31U // Feb 23, 2009 at 1:22 pm
RAM,
Since you have chosen to repeatedly ignore my question, I have no reason to disagree with you in referring to yourself as “Jody”.
Once again for any who missed it: Jody would be defined by most soldiers as an agent of immorality, a backstabber, a thief of relationships. Jody is the guy who looks forward to his peers deploying so he can go camp out in areas were he can take the best advantage of lonely spouses or girlfriends.
He is a traitor; the lowest form of human being because a soldier can return home after surviving a tour in combat only to be emotionally destroyed.
36 onlineanalyst // Feb 23, 2009 at 1:26 pm
boberin: No poor person, working poor or not, creates jobs for others. The wealthier, however, do invest and save their money;, putting more capital and, thus job creation, into the capitalist system.
In your utopian world of who should pay more taxes or what the ceiling of wealth should be, who decides what those parameters are? Why should they have that arbitrary power?
Let me give you an example of the silliness of the insistence on setting “fair” wages. Someone working for a government entity like the postal system has the same income as another in another locale if each is at the same employee designation. It is much more expensive to live in NYC on that salary than it is for a person in Podunk, USA.
A salary is what the market decides your work is worth. When an employee agrees to labor for another, it is assumed that both have found the terms agreeable. Otherwise, the worker can seek employment elsewhere, and the employer can find a worker who is willing to work for those terms.
The government should not be in the business of punishing the more productive (as determined by their wages or salaries), for they take no more from the government services than any others. In fact, they are likely to take far less.
By the same token, any material article or service is worth whatever a consumer is willing to pay.
(As an individual, I have choices: I can decide if the item is affordable or unaffordable, given my means and budget; I can save by denying myself other luxuries to afford it; I can work harder or take on another job in order to accumulate the funds; I can overextend my credit; or I can steal. Government redistribution of wealth through progressive taxation is sanctioned theft, pure and simple.)
When I go to the store, eat out in a restaurant, choose a place to live, buy a car, etc., I live withing my means. I don’t envy those who have more nor confuse my wants with my needs. The perpetually aggrieved haven’t learned that lesson of adulthood.
No external body should be determining wages, prices, or tax burden dependent on wealth.
Anyway, I didn’t mean to digress with this post.
Thanks for linking the excellent video, Fred. Those who espouse Marxism, cultural or economic, may not even realize what has shaped their world view.
David Horowitz, one of the people interviewed in that video, knows whereof he speaks in that he was very involved in the New Left’s resurrection in the ’60’s. His Discover the Networks is carefully researched and updated. It’s is worth bookmarking.
37 BlackLion31U // Feb 23, 2009 at 1:59 pm
OLA#36,
“The wealthier, however, do invest and save their money;, putting more capital and, thus job creation, into the capitalist system.”
I think this is the second time I’ve heard this mentioned on this site. Tell me, how does a person saving their money create jobs?
38 boberinyetagain // Feb 23, 2009 at 2:07 pm
Or how does one that makes $250,000 “create” any jobs?
We’ve tried tax cuts extensively. There was little of no deficit prior to George’s last round of cuts. Some years later there was a “gap” of damned near the same size as those cuts. The righ got richer, the country as a whole got poorer and it could be argued that there are less jobs now, couldn’t it?
Give the “poor” a break. I guarantee that they’ll spend the money and the rich will get it right back…but the poor might be a tad better off.
You should be required to show proof of income in order to buy cigarettes, lottery tickets or gamble in any way. We’d find other regressive means of collecting income then eh?
39 MajorDomo // Feb 23, 2009 at 2:35 pm
Darth 15: Obama, like Clinton, is a poll-watcher. It pays to watch what he does, rather than listen to what he says.
Who is holding him to his word?
40 onlineanalyst // Feb 23, 2009 at 3:34 pm
BL31U: When money is saved via passbook or money market accounts, the banks invest that money in order for the interest to grow. The investments are made in promising sectors, and those sectors or businesses thus have the capital to expand and invest in employing others or upgrading their infrastructure.
Unfortunately, because of government interference by Congress (which the Bush administration repeatedly warned against), banks were forced to buy GSEs (Government Secured Entities) such as bundled subprime mortgages from Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. Every time these were sold and resold by mortgage lenders, the good mortgages were mixed with the bad. Profits were made in each reselling, but because of defaults and foreclosures, it was difficult to separate the good from the bad loans.
Boberin: It is not enough to cut personal and corporate taxes and reduce capital gains taxes.
Spending cuts must also take place in tandem. Unfortunately, the federal government expanded liabilities in education via No Child Left Behind and in Social Security via expanded prescription coverage in Medicare.
Now, the bill is coming due for more SS retirees of the Baby Boomer cadre, and there is not enough money to handle that budget liability. To expand into nationalized single-payer health care will add to the burden, destroying our economy further and offer less than quality medical attention or innovation.
With the new porkulous bill, SCHIP has expanded health care up for families of four making up to $100,000. These recipients do not even have to provide proof of citizenship.
Tell me that the American taxpayer should be burdened with this expense.
National security and, yes, war appropriations are obligations of the federal government as spelled out in the Constitution. Bailing out failed businesses or banks is not.
The federal government has no business increasing the size of unemployment benefits and food stamps via federal funding, only to leave the funding of that increased burden to the states when the (misnamed) Reinvestment Bill terms end. Either way, the taxpayer pays and pays; the tax will never cease. This is the reason, BTW, that some fiscally responsible governors do not want to accept that portion of the funds. It is not political grandstanding. The Tenth Amendment makes clear what the limitations of the federal government are.
Do these explanations make sense? They do to me.
41 onlineanalyst // Feb 23, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Before I forget, with the sunsetting of the Bush tax cuts, a very generous child tax credit deduction will be lost. The Heritage Foundation estimates that the loss will be 50%. The Marriage Penalty tax will increase by $1480 on average.
With the Death Tax fully reinstated, small businesses and farms will be forced to sell, leading to further loss of jobs and revenue stream for the government.
You do know, I hope, that many pension programs and personal retirement plans have been vested in markets-in stocks, bonds, and money markets. Every day that we have insecurity in these markets because the government is threatening their viability with taxation and assorted punishments, the more that the average citizen’s income stream is affected.
If you or I have a disposable income, however great or small, we are able to buy, build, or invest. That means the creation of jobs for those that have fewer skills or are less well off.
People should be very careful about tarring their political opponents.
42 onlineanalyst // Feb 23, 2009 at 4:07 pm
Let me direct you to a conservative think tank: http://www.my heritage.org.
Also, follow the discussion at this link: http://hotair.com/archives/2009/02/23/obama-plans-soak-the-rich-class-warfare-economics/
The commenters posting there, for the most part, are well infomed about banking, investment, business, the housing industry, and government. They have a wealth of knowledge and experience informing their opinions.
43 boberinyetagain // Feb 23, 2009 at 4:21 pm
No “easy” answers I suppose. Yes, corporations pass the tax along to consumers (me) but I have a choice to buy or not…and if this is true then there’s no tax to pass along…and we should have millions of wonderful jobs available right now…where are they…exactly?
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) — Nearly two-thirds of U.S. companies and 68% of foreign corporations do not pay federal income taxes, according to a congressional report released Tuesday.
The Government Accountability Office (GAO) examined samples of corporate tax returns filed between 1998 and 2005. In that time period, an annual average of 1.3 million U.S. companies and 39,000 foreign companies doing business in the United States paid no income taxes - despite having a combined $2.5 trillion in revenue.
44 Deerslayer // Feb 23, 2009 at 4:39 pm
While I know that many believe that corporations exist to provide jobs, they actually exist to provide products/services to meet the needs and desires of their customers at a price that will allow PROFITS to be delivered to the capital providers.
I believe OLA has a very good understanding of economics and has basically given good examples. Keep in mind that economics cannot be evaluated in a static position and thus the DJI keeps changing every second as millions of people continue to make decisions in their best interest.
I might add that “Bob” has been very civil in his comments today and I for one, have appreciated/enjoyedbaneful this thread.
Thank you.
45 boberinyetagain // Feb 23, 2009 at 4:49 pm
Slayer, apparently corporations can’t supply either profits or jobs but it doesn’t appear that a lower tax rate will change anything meaningfully if there are precious few paying anything now.
I’m normally pretty civil and yes, OLA is an excellent source of information. We can agree on that.
46 Deerslayer // Feb 23, 2009 at 4:59 pm
Bober, I’m actually of the opinion that Corporations do not pay any tax - it is a cost of doing business and all costs are passed along to the consumer, thus if you buy the product-you pay the tax. You just can’t see it.
In reality, you pay taxes when you work and when you consume - all income to the government comes from the citizens, one way or the other.
47 onlineanalyst // Feb 23, 2009 at 5:23 pm
Well, thanks for the compliments, guys.
I’m just a retired high school English teacher who has but a fundamental understanding of economics. By living frugally and yet trying to be generous in my charitable support of those less fortunate, I set aside money in my late career years to invest as supplements to my retirement income. I have lost a considerable chunk of those investments even though they are conservatively invested in mutual funds.
Having learned from my depression-era parents about the value of the dollar, I make-do or do without. Saving and not wasting are important values.
The uncanny part about personal generosity is that the gift(s) somehow come back in rewarding, unexpected, and not necessarily monetary ways.
The sad part about the mantra of punishing the rich is that they, too, have lost a considerable amount in this downturn. As a result, much philanthropy and many of their endowments have dried up donations to libraries, colleges, the arts, hospitals, and charitable organizations.
48 RedPepper // Feb 23, 2009 at 5:40 pm
I’ll bet that everyone here is familiar with the oft-repeated claim, by Nancy Pelosi and others, that “we’re doing it for the children.” Doing what, we ask?
It’s hard to believe, but true: under a law Congress passed last year aimed at regulating hazards in children’s products, the federal government has now advised that children’s books published before 1985 should not be considered safe and may in many cases be unlawful to sell or distribute. Merchants, thrift stores, and booksellers may be at risk if they sell older volumes, or even give them away, without first subjecting them to testing—at prohibitive expense.
To read the rest of the article, click on this link.
49 Deerslayer // Feb 23, 2009 at 5:59 pm
OLYMPIA, Wash. The state of Washington sent out $1 checks to the 250,000 food stamp recipients in the state.
The director of the Community Services Division for the Department of Social and Health Services, Leo Ribas, says the checks mailed Feb. 17 trigger an additional $43 million in federal food benefits. They also connect recipients to an energy assistance program.
Ribas says the $1 check is a one-time move to leverage the federal money. He says next year the state will be able to trigger the federal assistance through a routine deposit in food stamp accounts.
(with information from The Olympian)
$250,000 turned into 43 million in less than a year - Sounds like Hillary’s cattle futures purchase.
50 everthink // Feb 23, 2009 at 6:39 pm
Domo:
MajorDomo // Feb 23, 2009 at 2:23 pm
“I just need to know what day of the week/month will the clean air kooks allow me to flatulate?”
Well, I see you just had let ‘er rip! That’s just fine! You found a good place, now it qualifies as EPA Super Fund Site.
That means work for Republicans in need. They do the work most Americans won’t do!
Democrats can’t stand the smell, but Repugs just love it! Like a “little peace of heaven”, I bet.
Just look around and inhale deeply!
ET
51 BlackLion31U // Feb 23, 2009 at 6:57 pm
OLA#40,
Thanks for taking the time to explain. In a perfect world, your way may work real well. Of course you are in part referring to trickle down economics. Unfortunately, that theory doesn’t play out as planned because as humans we are cursed with levels of greed and irresponsibility.
For a time, I was in the financial services industry. At the time, the big insurance companies were making big money off of “cash value” life insurance policies. It was clear to me that the industry was taking advantage of the consumer. Anyone could purchase a term policy for the same coverage and invest the savings in a much higher yielding savings tool. Today the public is far more educated in the matter, and term is considered the way to go. The one thing left out of the equation was that people are more likely not to invest their savings. As long as they had a fixed life insurance premium, they would pay it. Once removed from the policy, being concerned about having enough baby food till the end of the month became more important than twenty years into the future.
Trickle Down -
The theory is, give big tax breaks to big business and they will expand and reinvest and produce more jobs thereby growing the economy. Again unfortunately, human nature is working against this approach. Instead what you have is the upper class withholding money because investments at this point have terrible returns and the threat of the complete loss of the investment is very high. In a recession, increased saving — or its flip side, decreased spending — can exacerbate the economy’s woes. It’s what economists call the “paradox of thrift”. Many economists think that when consumers save money instead of spending it, a recession gets deeper. People start to stick money into mattresses for safe keeping in case they get fired. They may use it to pay off debt. No matter what the reason, it does not flow back into the purchase of goods and services allowing the economy to grow. What would also hurt the economy is “hoarding”. However, there is a subtle difference between hoarding and saving. Hoarders don’t have a reason to hoard, but savers always have a reason to save - and more often than not, the reason is to be able to spend wisely in the future on things that matter.
An alternative theory to the “trickle down” is to invest in the lower and middle class. By infusing money into those classes you undeniably see the purchase of goods and services. Money starts changing hands and gets put back into the economy growing jobs and businesses instead of being stuck in an offshore account profiting only the individual who owns the account. Why does it get put back into the economy, why does it change hands and increase business revenue and possible allow for expansion and job production? Because it has too. The lower and middle class don’t have the luxury of an offshore account to fall back on. They have to spend the money the get to survive. They don’t have a choice.
In a recession, consumers have less money. The less money they have, the less they spend, the more the economy contracts, and the worse the recession gets. The idea of an economic stimulus is to make people spend more money to counteract this worsening cycle. Saving in an offshore account doesn’t do anything to improve the cycle. No doubt, it’s great for the account holder, for a time.
Trickle down, doesn’t work. If it did, our economy would be in great shape right now with the way the last president favored big business.
52 mindknumbed kid // Feb 23, 2009 at 7:03 pm
I believe that if I were near the $250K/year mark it might allow me to develop an idea I have for a little invention, and IF I could sell the idea to certain large corporations it would mean hiring skilled workers to assemble and install the product. That sounds like jobs to me. But for now I lack time and resources to even think about building a prototype and endeavoring to sell it. I wonder how many others might do the same if they were able financially?
53 Fred Sinclair // Feb 23, 2009 at 7:06 pm
This in from Letty - I agree.
How the stimulus plan will REALLY work…
Three contractors are bidding to fix a broken fence at the White House. One is from Chicago, another is from Tennessee, and the third is from Minnesota.
All three go with a White House official to examine the fence:
The Minnesota contractor takes out a tape measure and does some measuring, then works some figures with a pencil. “Well,” he says, “I figure the job will run about $900: $400 for materials, $400 for my crew and $100 profit for me.”
The Tennessee contractor also does some measuring and figuring, then says, “I can do this job for $700: $300 for materials, $300 for my crew and $100 profit for me.”
The Chicago contractor doesn’t measure or figure, but leans over to the White House official and whispers, “$2,700.”
The official, incredulous, says, “You didn’t even measure like the other guys! How did you come up with such a high figure?”
The Chicago contractor whispers back, “$1000 for me, $1000 for you, and we hire the guy from Tennessee to fix the fence.”
“Done!” replies the government official.
And that, my friends, is how the new stimulus plan will REALLY work.
54 mindknumbed kid // Feb 23, 2009 at 7:46 pm
Scenario: There have been a rash of armed robberies, some home invasion robberies in your neighborhood for a couple of years. You awaken at 2 AM and there is someone in your home. You have a weapon nearby, (since it is my scenario I will say it is a Colt 45) you quickly retrieve it and begin to investigate, the intruder flees out the back into a dark alleyand as you enter the alley he turns toward you and appears to be pulling a weapon of his own. You make a decision and act on it, I’m not saying what your decision is, as it is irrelevant.
Did you do the right thing? How do you know if you are right or wrong at the time you make your decision? Can you be absolutely certain about the future events when you make your decision? There are times when you cannot afford to take chances. (Am I right or wrong?)
You cannot make conclusive arguments when there are future events whose outcome cannot be known until after the fact. (Am I right or wrong?) Your best bet is to rely on what you know to be fact from the recent past.
Therefore I stand by my statements about the decision to go to war in Iraq. In order to say that it was wrong, and that American soldiers died in vain you have to know that what you believed to be a serious threat at that moment, was not a threat at all. The past does not present that knowledge. Even IF he turns out to be proven wrong, would you judge the actions of the person protecting their home and their life as being wrong - if the perp turned out to be unarmed?
55 BlackLion31U // Feb 23, 2009 at 8:18 pm
MKK,
I respect your argument, now consider this; “You awaken at 2 AM and there is someone in your home”. You have a weapon nearby, (since it is my scenario I will say it is a Colt 45) you quickly retrieve it and begin to investigate, the intruder flees out the back into a dark alley and as you enter the alley he turns toward you and appears to be pulling a weapon of his own. You make a decision and act on it,…”
Let’s assume your reaction is to pursue that person, but you end up not catching them. You are familiar with who he is. Within a period of time, he is bragging on the street about being in your house. You promise yourself and your loved ones that you will catch him. You are quite confident he is a member of a gang. During your attempts to try to locate this person, you stumble across another gang member. You call your whole clan; Uncles, Brothers, Friends, Sons, anyone able to fight. Your posse engages in a fierce battle with this gang member. Eventually, he is killed. But during the battle, you lost your brothers, some friends, an uncle and maybe even a son or two.
You took a gang member off of the street at a great personal sacrifice, but the man that was in your home at 2 AM, the man you confronted in the alley, he’s still out there.
God help you if he comes back, much of your family was killed and you may not have enough to stop him.
56 onlineanalyst // Feb 23, 2009 at 8:30 pm
BL31U: What concerns me is that the price tag for the stimulus bill, TARP II, and the upcoming budget allocations relies on extensive borrowing from countries that don’t have much faith in the soundness of our dollar and that the printing of more money by the Treasury will render our buying more even more feeble.
Ironically, the little money that will see its way into the lower and middle class through the stimulus plan will probably be spent in ticky-tack items from WalMart or the Dollar Store and wend its way back to China just as our debt is enriching their, not our economy.
Spending is contracting because people are concerned about their incomes, their savings, and the probability of inflated costs of goods.
I wouldn’t mind replacing my 13-year-old car, just for a change, though it is highly reliable, has great gas mileage, and looks great for its age. Out of pure vanity or maybe a desire for novelty, I gawk around at some of the newer models in my price range. Then, I step back because with the instability created by the Dems’ Green Revolution and the constantly shifting government standards, my purchase might be obsolete or worthy of a fine/confiscation in short time. At least with my trusty current vehicle, the loss wouldn’t be as costly. Now, my frugal decision has stalled one of our industries. If others think like me, the impact is more severe.
My recollection of the Jimmy Carter years is not an experience that I wish to repeat. This is where I see our economy (and our national security policy) headed, unfortunately, with the Obama presidency. I also fear the lessening of our liberties with Obama’s social vision. He sees our Constitution as a list of negative rights; I see its guaranteed rights as a limitation of the government on the individual.
I have very strong convictions re the individual. I valued and respected my students as individuals and taught them to respect themselves for their own uniqueness and potential for excellence. The worship of the collective or groupthink appalls me because it pulls everyone down to the lowest common denominator.
I’m more of a Milton Friedman admirer than I am of Keynes. The former has a better batting average.
Sorry to be so chatty, but I am just thinking my personal philosophy aloud. It has come from personal experience, reading, and reflection about what I see as enduring values.
57 BlackLion31U // Feb 23, 2009 at 9:16 pm
OLA, don’t feel it necessary to apologize for being chatty. I welcome the civil exchange. And I do acknowledge your points. We may not come to agree on them, but I do acknowledge them.
This however intrigues me:
“I also fear the lessening of our liberties with Obama’s social vision. He sees our Constitution as a list of negative rights; I see its guaranteed rights as a limitation of the government on the individual.”
“I SEE ITS GUARENTEED RIGHTS AS A LIMITATION OF THE GOVERNMENT ON THE INDIVIDUAL.” Bravo!!! We absolutely agree!!!!
Then Seriously, where was the concern, the outrage when the last administration allegedly ignored our constitution with secret wire tapping with the excuse of “keeping us safe from terrorists”? If I’m not mistaken, at this moment, there are three people who are in contempt of congress. If they are innocent, let it be found. Where is the outrage in the mockery these people have made of the system our founding fathers put into place?
This is not a partisan argument. This is the protection of our Constitution. This is that limitation of the government on the individual!
58 Fred Sinclair // Feb 23, 2009 at 9:33 pm
To paraphrase the famous lawyer question…..
Q. How many Obama, the usurper jokes are there?
A. Just two … all the rest are true.
mkk #54 & ola #56 - From what you post you’re describing what amounts to what my friends in Israel would call a “preemptive strike”. [preemptive | pr??emptiv|adjective serving or intended to preempt or forestall something, esp. to prevent attack by disabling the enemy : preemptive action | a preemptive strike.]
Something I believe strongly about. “I’d rather be tried by twelve than carried by six.”
59 everthink // Feb 23, 2009 at 9:58 pm
Egospeak,
“To the point, or at least somewhat… It is my humble opinion that either 1) only income tax payers should be allowed to vote in any election held in America or 2) all wage earners should have to pay some income tax regardless how much or little they earn.”
How about we eliminate income tax, and have only property tax; that way we could limit voting to land owners, or how about a poll tax?
Well, at least a literacy test, don’t you think?
ET
60 onlineanalyst // Feb 23, 2009 at 10:00 pm
I cannot take the time to answer your point fully, but I understand that the Obama administration is continuing this practice and a number of others that were instituted after 9/11 in the interest of national security.
Actually, it is a misnomer to call what was going on “wiretapping”. Because in telecommunications some calls are routed through our system (because it is the most well-developed and sophisticated), security personnel were most attentive to calls that originated from countries hostile to our national security. I don’t believe that the calls themselves were recorded by analysts (I know this is not the right term for the people involved, but I cannot recall what it is.)but were flagged as suspicious. If warranted, they were examined more fully. I think that the calls had to originate from other countries, not our own. These were not calls made from one of our citizens to another within the US.
Had there been abuses of US citizens’ civil rights, there would have been a number of whistle-blowers making this known. Apparently, the numbers and speed of these transmissions led experienced analysts to know which signals to disregard and which to be attentive to.
Now, it wouldn’t surprise me if calls connecting known sleeper cells were under observation. Probably some Internet sites are studied for the same purpose.
Obviously, any surveillance of telephone calls or Internet communications is vulnerable to government abuse or restriction such as it is in tyrannical countries. (Ask the Chinese.)
I have no reason to believe that the Bush administration abused its power, nor does there appear to be any verifiable evidence of it. (Whatever Clinton was doing with Echelon was much more of a fishing expedition, which obviously had to be halted.) Nevertheless, “the price of liberty is eternal vigilance,” and we should be attentive to protecting our rights.
Balancing national security with individual liberty is the tension that we must cope with without becoming too complacent nor too paranoid.
Okay. I have to hang it up now. I have an early morning’s drive to my dear old widowed mom’s home to take care of “bidness”.
61 Libby Gone // Feb 24, 2009 at 12:41 am
[deleted]
62 everthink // Feb 24, 2009 at 1:32 am
[deleted response to previously deleted comment]
63 everthink // Feb 24, 2009 at 1:39 am
Looks like I should have typed “wandered” instead of “wondered” in the above post, but it is a wonder you all haven’t caught something, or another there.
ET
64 everthink // Feb 24, 2009 at 1:42 am
“I have no reason to believe that the Bush administration abused its power, nor does there appear to be any verifiable evidence of it.”
Wait for the trial, you’ll see then!
ET
65 everthink // Feb 24, 2009 at 1:48 am
Egospeak,
More on post 59.
Do you think it may be time to end Women’s Sufferage too?
ET
66 R.A.M. // Feb 24, 2009 at 5:11 am
blacklion #35, Anyone who has read my posts as far back as 2002, knows I am an HONORABLY discharged ARMY veteran. The fact that you keep putting up “hoops” for what you libs respect for military service tells me something about YOUR character, (rather, lack of it). If I am “Jody”, then I guess you are admitting you are “Ernest T. Bass”? Like a typical lib, you have taken a comment mean as a joke and turned it into a “supposed” serious statement. Shame on your kind of deceiver!
It has not been that long ago that you said you expected John McCain to make the sounds of the “Penguin” in “Batman” after watching him walk, so I do NOT expect you will respect ANYONE any more for having combat service, (as John McCain has), unless they are on your side of the aisle. Likie John Kerry, who painted ALL Vietnam Vets as “baby killers”. Now there is a lib role model!
While reading about YOUR definition of “Jody”, it struck me that it fits Bill Clinton almost to a “T”!
P.S.: I do NOT respect you or your daddy (et), so why would I care what you think about anything? The only reason I am responding is so others that see your “false witness” will not believe your lies about my service to my Country. I already said, I will NOT continue to answer demands from trolls like you and your daddy, when I have already in the past, and they were NEVER acknowledged.
“Fool me once——”
Time to move on to a new lie or continue to look as foolish as you already do.
67 R.A.M. // Feb 24, 2009 at 6:06 am
If only Obama was as transparent as Blacklion! Notice that after he attacks me, his next three comments are to posters he and et have attacked, yet he says things like:
Post 51: OLA#40,
Thanks for taking the time to explain.
Post 55: MKK,
I respect your argument, now consider this-
Post 57: OLA, don’t feel it necessary to apologize for being chatty. I welcome the civil exchange. And I do acknowledge your points. We may not come to agree on them, but I do acknowledge them.
Do you and dad think doing the “good cop/ bad cop” thing is going to gain folks to your side?
You are VERY TRANSPARENT!
I bet you are a good “play actor” in Church too, IF, you attend one.
68 Fred Sinclair // Feb 24, 2009 at 6:58 am
Date: 2/23/2009 6:22:23 PM Eastern Standard Time
Alan Keyes tells it exactly as it it is… bigg bill
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqkMfToY9Pk&eurl=http://www.politicususa.com/en/Keyes-Obama
69 BlackLion31U // Feb 24, 2009 at 8:00 am
RAM#67,
Simple answer, I treat others as they treat me.
I never questioned your being honorably discharged. My question was; did you ever deploy to combat?
70 everthink // Feb 24, 2009 at 11:56 am
Libby Gone,
Your insulting post was deleted because it was crude and clearly untrue!
My retort, however, was an elegant, witty, cleverly worded response which would have devastated you! It made you the butt of your own joke! A position to which , by now, you should be accustomed.
Try again, but remember, I don’t like being deleted in addressing your rash subject!
Try also, not to leave the “Common Sense Trail” and wander into the “Repug Forest”!
ET
71 everthink // Feb 24, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Repugs in Congress have recently discovered a new word, it is “bipartisan”. It seems to be the only thing our new president has said that has registered with them.
While the addition of new words to tired old Republican Talking Points is easier on the ears of MOST Americans, it would be even better if they understood the meaning of these words before harping endlessly on them.
Perhaps, if Democrats explained that the Republicans are the minority party. They first fell to this status four years ago, and after the last election they underscored this “minority” status by further losses.
Recent opinion polls indicate the American Electorate now sees them as trying to obstruct a very popular president who is trying to rescue our nation from eight years of their rubber stamping of policies which have put our nation into this desperate position.
Their ideas have proven disastrous, and the American People, not just Congress, are tired of listening to their “phony baloney”.
Bipartisan, only means we’ll listen some, but not endlessly, before rejecting their idiot ideas.
ET
72 baragirl // Feb 25, 2009 at 8:38 pm
“Try again, but remember, I don’t like being deleted”
oooooooo!Such mean talk from one of such small means.Why I’ll bet Scott Ott and/or whoever has their thumb on the [delete] button are trembling in their boots.
You just don’t get it . 0bama won the election, not you . None of us has to take orders from you,not now, not ever.So drop the bluster ,buster.
Just because you are a Lame Idiot Bloviator,you are no smarter or better educated than you were the day before 0bama was selected.
73 Pickerhead :: Pickings from the Webvine ::February 22, 2009 // Mar 30, 2010 at 9:52 am
[...] to Scrappleface, Dems are complaining Obama’s new budget is unfair to the [...]
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