(2007-12-11) — When the director of Central Intelligence appears today before a closed-door hearing of the Senate Intelligence Committee to explain the destruction of recordings of CIA terrorist interrogations including the controversial technique of waterboarding, he plans to present the panel with several “alternate tapes” that have been preserved, which he said “unquestionably show episodes of torture.”
Gen. Michael V. Hayden, the CIA chief, said video recorded in 2001 will show incidents in which captives were subjected to choking smoke, searing flame, falls from great elevations and crushing under large pieces of concrete.
“While we do have the tapes,” said Gen. Hayden, “We have very few surviving victims of this torture. Almost all of them were killed by the technique. Compared with the 35 seconds or so that an al Qaeda member might have been subjected to simulated drowning in order to force him to divulge plans for upcoming terror strikes, these recordings are much more dramatic.”
The CIA director said the videos he’ll give the Senate panel are not top-secret, and have already been seen by nearly every American, “since we were all glued to our televisions that day in September 2001, when Islamic terrorists tortured and killed 3,000 innocent Americans.”
“There was a time when we treated terrorism like a legal issue, or even a civil rights issue, instead of a national defense priority,” said Gen. Hayden. “Meanwhile, the terrorists continued to torture and slaughter soldier and civilian alike. We’ve moved beyond the days of allowing the innocent to suffer as we protect the rights of those determined to destroy us. Americans are better than that.”
61 responses so far ↓
1 camojack // Dec 11, 2007 at 7:44 am
I think people who call waterboarding torture are, well, all wet.
When I was in the military, my unit was subjected to waterboarding as part of a training exercise…
2 boberinyetagain // Dec 11, 2007 at 8:07 am
A good point Mr. Ott but one that might get blurry for you if it were you or yours subjected to such things because someone thought you might be involved in something nefarious. Thus the (at least) minor dilema. Not everyone in prison is actually guilty (granted, the majority are) and that was after an allegedly fair trial.
[Editor’s Note: You have bested me in satire. I doff my head to you.]
3 JamesonLewis3rd // Dec 11, 2007 at 8:32 am
Scott~~
I was reading along, nonchalantly sipping the last of the coffee (wondering where this was going), when I got to the fourth paragraph and you punched me right in the gut.
Excellent. Kudos.
4 JamesonLewis3rd // Dec 11, 2007 at 8:40 am
God Bless America
5 boberinyetagain // Dec 11, 2007 at 8:44 am
One does what one can….even if he can’t
6 Fred Sinclair // Dec 11, 2007 at 9:54 am
Personally I would prefer helicoptering over waterboarding. Like waterboarding it is 100% effective. Plus you get to save a bunch of money and there is at the least one less terrorist to worry about.
Heirborn Ranger
7 Fred Sinclair // Dec 11, 2007 at 10:00 am
Editor’s Note: Re #2 That one line may well be your best line today. You can have the rest of the day off.
Heirborn Ranger
8 NeaL // Dec 11, 2007 at 10:01 am
I wish more people in this world shared your talent for perspective, Scott.
9 JQ // Dec 11, 2007 at 10:34 am
Re #2, I think I have to agree with Boberin here. While I have no problem with anyone torturing a terrorist for information, the problem is in determining who is a terrorist. Unless someone is caught red-handed and is without-a-doubt guilty, it shouldn’t be done.
It’s easy to say that the chance to prevent another horrific terrorist attack justifies ignoring the off-chance that the interrogated individual is actually innocent. But what if I was that particular individual, who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time? Should my rights to life and liberty be infringed upon just because I “might be” a terrorist?
10 boberinyetagain // Dec 11, 2007 at 10:52 am
they came for the … and I said nothing
then they came for the … and I said nothing
and finally they came for me…
oh never mind
11 boberinyetagain // Dec 11, 2007 at 11:12 am
Where’s Camo when you need him to be 11teenth?
12 Ms RightWing, Ink // Dec 11, 2007 at 11:38 am
Surf’s up! Let’s roll-or swim, or pray. Do something.
A great headline in today’s paper, er, for some folks anyway.
COLORADO SPRINGS, COLO.: When a black-clad gunman walked into New Life Church on Sunday and started shooting, he was met with the church’s first line of defense: a congregant with a concealed-weapons permit and a law-enforcement background.
The armed volunteer, Jeanne Assam, shot the gunman . New Life’s pastor credited Assam with saving dozens more lives.”
Back to topic
Surf’s up!
13 gafisher // Dec 11, 2007 at 11:38 am
Good points, Bober. We really ought to prevent terrorist acts by catching the guilty afterwards. And, um, then going back in time and, er, keeping the ol’ tinfoil tight over our ears and, that is, you know, changing the past so the guilty don’t get a chance to commit their terrorist acts and then, ah, letting them go because they’re no longer guilty and …
Boy, call me a pragmatist but I think taking a chance that someone who hangs around with terrorists just might know something seems a lot easier than the whole time travel business.
14 Ms RightWing, Ink // Dec 11, 2007 at 11:44 am
P.S. & by the way-waterboarding would be torture for me since my legs would not handle a surfboard, but water aerobics are a good way to excersize.
Islamic excersizing, umm, not so good.
Running down a hundred flights of stairs is not highly recommended except for firemen who, thank God are able to do such when the Religion of Peace activists decide to throw a holiday bash.
15 Maggie // Dec 11, 2007 at 11:56 am
Scott …re #2
I was gonna scroll right on by and then….I saw your ‘editor’s note’. Wahahahahahhaha!
Btw….where can one purchase a ‘waterboard’?
16 Just Ranting // Dec 11, 2007 at 12:10 pm
I would not want to be waterboarded. Shucks, I’d spill all I know if I got pool water up my nose. The Mrs., on the other hand, claims waterboarding would have little effect on her as she is used to retaining large amounts of water at regular intervals. Most months it only seems to make her a bit peevish.
17 boberinyetagain // Dec 11, 2007 at 1:10 pm
It’s just me, I admit it.
I do wonder what I’d do if I were locked up and “questioned” for/about something that I truly had no knowledge of. Add to that the idea that my interrogater had no limits to what he might do to get me to “confess”.
Again it’s just me but I’m guessing I’d commence “confessing” quite quickly as long as the “questioning” was specific enough for me to determine what it is they wanted to hear.
It’s good that we are so certain of guilt that this is not a problem, it might lead to faulty conclusions otherwise. If I have been inadvertatly “saved” by such questioning then naturally I should be quite thankful that folks are willing to “go the extra mile” for me.
I’ve rethought this and now believe we should all submit to “questioning” for the common good. It’s a safe bet that we all have something we could confess to to make the world a happier place. Who’s with me?
18 mig // Dec 11, 2007 at 1:38 pm
We haven’t had this kind of coverup since the 18 minutes of silence on the Nixon Tapes…
Edward The Biggee Kennedy
(not an exact qoute)
19 Godfrey // Dec 11, 2007 at 1:50 pm
I find this post interesting, if slightly less entertaining than usual (the “Tickle Me Muhammad” post, for instance, was deliciously clever; I added it to my bookmarked list of Ott favorites).
First of all, the comparison between a terrorist attack and torture is a bit tenuous. Both are terrible, but they’re not the same thing.
One of the chief underpinnings of human morality, and one that cuts across most cultural lines, is the Golden Rule. Proponed by Jesus himself and by various other moral philosophers before and since Jesus, it simply states “treat others as you would have them treat you”.
Given this, the question arises: if an enemy captured our soldiers and subjected them to partial drowning in order to extract, say, information or confessions, would we be okay with it? Would we shrug and say “at least they’re not torturing ‘em”. What if they used the technique on our civilians?
Historically speaking, that question has already been answered. After WWII, during the so-called “Tokyo War Crimes Trials”, members of the Japanese military were charged with torturing allied troops (as well as civilians). Their eventual convictions were based in large part on a technique they called the “water cure”… what we would now call waterboarding.
If we called it a “war crime” then, why don’t we call it that today? Hypocrisy is sometimes difficult to discern in ourselves, especially when we feel threatened…but it is rarelly lost on others.
20 JQ // Dec 11, 2007 at 1:51 pm
Re: 13. It’s a delicate line we have to tread between punishing the guilty and protecting the innocent. The end does not justify the means; it’s all about the means. That’s what separates us from the baddies. You can’t go around hurting potentially innocent folks just because you’re suspicious of them.
Again, I make a distinction between “potential innocents” and “confirmed terrorists.” If you can confirm someone’s involvement in a terrorist organization, have at ‘em. Otherwise, hands off.
21 da Bunny // Dec 11, 2007 at 2:40 pm
Right on, and very well done, Scott! And for the record…no one here bests you in satire, so you can keep your head!
Those who are more worried about some possible discomfort suffered by an islamofascist terrorist than they are about the torment and extreme suffering of those harmed, maimed or killed by a terrorist’s acts reveal where their true loyalties and priorities lie.
22 Fred Sinclair // Dec 11, 2007 at 3:03 pm
Godfrey Re #19
Gee you and I must have read different history books - the “water cure” and waterboarding are quite different. The Japs would put a prisoner on the floor, with other prisoners watching, then force a funnel into the mouth and pour water - with tape over the nose, the prisoner would have to swallow - this would continue until the stomach was distended with several liters of the water at which time a Jap would get on a table and jump on the prisoner’s belly rupturing his torso amid his screams - then the prisoners watching would be very anxious to talk, seeing that it was now their turn for the “water cure” (It cured them of their refusal to talk). 100% deaths for the ones jumped on.
“Waterboarding” goes back to America’s earlier days. The days of the Puritans, when an actual board was used - a teeter-totter arrangement with a chair on one end. The offender (caught talking in church, falling asleep in church, late for church, etc.) would be strapped into the chair, then lowered into the pond for a certain number of seconds. This, along with illustrations was in my 5th grade history book. Those missing or skipping church was fined a days labor.
Heirborn Ranger
23 boberinyetagain // Dec 11, 2007 at 3:20 pm
“The so-called ‘water treatment’ was commonly used. The victim was bound or otherwise secured in a prone position; and water was forced through his mouth and nostrils into his lungs and stomach until he lost consciousness. Pressure was then applied, sometimes by jumping upon his abdomen to force the water out. The usual practice was to revive the victim and successively repeat the process.”
24 boberinyetagain // Dec 11, 2007 at 3:21 pm
Water cure was among the forms of torture used by American soldiers on Filipinos during the Philippine-American War.
And so it goes…
25 a440hz // Dec 11, 2007 at 3:23 pm
When I read the headline, my guess was that the torture was going to be having Congress watch, say, six hours of C-SPAN- footage of themselves deliberating some inane point. Huge mirrors in both House and Senate might do some good.
Brian Regan has a great bit about C-SPAN and the long-windedness of some senators/reps: [said in a gasbag Southern accent] ” ‘I would like to respectfully submit to the fine senator from the state of South Carolina that, while I respect his many years of service in this legislative body, I must repectfully disagree.’ [Regan:] Is he mad at him?”
26 boberinyetagain // Dec 11, 2007 at 3:27 pm
In 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor.
But that was then, back when it was “wrong”, mostly, I’m betting, because it was used against Americans. We, on the other hand…
27 gafisher // Dec 11, 2007 at 3:50 pm
Defendant: Asano, Yukio Docket Date: 53/ May 1 - 28, 1947, Yokohama, Japan
Charge: Violation of the Laws and Customs of War: 1. Did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and torture PWs. 2. Did unlawfully take and convert to his own use Red Cross packages and supplies intended for PWs.
Specifications:beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward
Verdict: 15 years CHL
28 Ms RightWing, Ink // Dec 11, 2007 at 4:01 pm
I’ll have a glass of water with that board-better yet white wine.
29 JamesonLewis3rd // Dec 11, 2007 at 4:54 pm
The implications, innuendos, assumptions (and, yes, even the occasional not-so-subtle suggestions) that the USA would use extreme interrogation methods on just anyone who happens along simply for recreational purposes (and not solely and reluctantly on well-known enemy operatives known to have crucial, time-sensitive information regarding the imminent massacre of any number of innocent human beings) are distasteful in the extreme.
The apparent naïveté of Leftist Sympathizers is, in fact, a not-so-clever, translucent facade meant to mask their schizophrenic, misanthropic, narcissistic, hate-filled rage against all that is just and right and good. They are like poison. Actually, they are poison.
Merry Christmas
to
One and All
Happy New Year
30 JamesonLewis3rd // Dec 11, 2007 at 4:58 pm
Comparing the United States of America to a convicted Japanese War Criminal, eh?
How deluded can you get? How vile can you get…..How utterly repulsive. Sick.
31 JQ // Dec 11, 2007 at 5:59 pm
“The apparent naĂŻvetĂ© of Leftist Sympathizers is, in fact, a not-so-clever, translucent facade meant to mask their schizophrenic, misanthropic, narcissistic, hate-filled rage against all that is just and right and good. They are like poison. Actually, they are poison.”
“Comparing the United States of America to a convicted Japanese War Criminal, eh? How deluded can you get? How vile can you get…..How utterly repulsive. Sick.”
Who’s the naiive one, now? Do you actually believe that the U.S. is always right and never does anything morally reprehensible? It really scares me when I hear people speak of the United States as if we are the hand and mouth of God, blameless amongst our peers (as if we have any…*scoff*).
The U.S. is as susceptible to slips, trips, and falls as any other nation. Does that mean we should disown our nation? Of course not! However, it does mean that we should learn from our mistakes instead of sweeping them under the rug.
Being a patriot doesn’t mean pretending that we’re faultless. On the contrary, it means loving our country despite her faults and striving to do our part to make her better.
32 Beerme // Dec 11, 2007 at 6:10 pm
First, waterboarding is torture-a mild form of torture but torture, nonetheless.
Second, the stomach for such treatment seems to decline as the memory and horror of 9/11 recedes. For evidence of this phenomenon note Nancy Pelosi, Jay Rockefeller and other prominent Democrats’ lack of objections to the practice when it was revealed to them in 2002…
If a few moments of simulated drowning (contrast that to a few minutes of actual sawing off of a head with a butcher knife, for effect) will produce information that will save more lives and help defeat the terrorists, I can hardly complain about it. The problem, as in all things done by our government, is who makes the decisions and how much can we trust their judgment?
It is surely a dirty business and to be avoided if at all possible, in most cases.
33 camojack // Dec 11, 2007 at 6:55 pm
Beerme // Dec 11, 2007 at 6:10 pm
First, waterboarding is torture…
No, 32nd; this was first:
camojack // Dec 11, 2007 at 7:44 am
I think people who call waterboarding torture are, well, all wet.
When I was in the military, my unit was subjected to waterboarding as part of a training exercise…
Torture leaves marks…
34 JamesonLewis3rd // Dec 11, 2007 at 7:12 pm
RE: #31~~
Blatant mischaracterizations of my comments using rote Leftist Spin serves only to bolster my point.
35 mindknumbed kid // Dec 11, 2007 at 7:46 pm
What physical harm is there in this procedure ? As I understand it, it puts a lot of fear into a person. If I were waterboarded I cannot imagine what false information I could be “forced” to divuldge. I can imagine that I would strongly assert having no knowledge or connections with whatever they are inquiring about.
I have heard of other things, like bamboo shoots under the fingernails, that would seem like torture to me. It could be that someone somewhere would misuse the technique, I would not condone using it to find out who put a tack on the teacher’s chair…..but come now, lets have some sort of perspective, lets place the practice in the proper context here.
I have heard of more than one police officer that has used a gun to commit murder, does that mean that all cops should be stripped of their weapons, lets just go ahead and place every cop that has carried a weapon on administrative leave until we determine whether or not he perhaps would missuse a firearm. Futhermore any criminal that who had his/her attempt to flea the scene of a crime due to a law officer brandishing a weapon and ordering him/her to “freeze” should be set free and anything he/she has divuldged be rendered inadmissable in court, after all he/she would have gotten away if he/she had not been “tortured” by having a weapon pointed at his/her being! How is that any less frightening than any other experience that could possibly end one’s life prematurely ?
One thing that the government is obligated to do is to protect the citiznry from those that will do them harm without cause, I can support these methods of doing that job as thoroughly as it can be done. Now if they want to protect me from eating a Big Mac, then I cannot support it at all, I want to be responsible for myself - thank you very much! But I can’t go around checking out every person that might seek to do me and mine harm.
Is it really that hard to understand this whole issue ? Too many people worried about the wrong thing here, get some perspective, think about it a little bit. Do you think that if you were responsible for your neighborhoods health safety and wealfare that you would be out wasting your time on some guy watching a football game who happened to be rooting for your team’s opponent ? I’m sure that you would FOCUS your attention on pertinient things and react accordingly.
36 mindknumbed kid // Dec 11, 2007 at 7:50 pm
Oh yeah, in this life, mistakes happen. Unless you ain’t doin’ anything. It is inevitable. But this knowledge doesn’t mean that you condone it, or that it should not be addressed.
37 Terry_Jim // Dec 11, 2007 at 7:59 pm
Maybe Sen Reid would allow the CIA to make captured terrorists run while carrying scissors until they are so scared they spill their secrets.
I don’t mind waterboarding these vermin, unless wrapping them in bacon and standing them in front of a firing squad would frighten them more.
38 danimal // Dec 11, 2007 at 8:15 pm
The purpose of the CIA is to videotape secret stuff and archive it so that Senators, bored with internet porn will have something to look at.
Everybody knows that.
39 gafisher // Dec 11, 2007 at 8:15 pm
To clarify #27, the Japanese sadist guard convicted of “beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward” was NOT waterboarding, he was torturing and abusing prisoners. There is NO comparison. Waterboarding is so far from torture that, when shown the procedure, Nancy Pelosi and her Congressional delegation urged the CIA to “PUSH HARDER”.
40 onlineanalyst // Dec 11, 2007 at 8:37 pm
From what I had read re waterboarding, it was done two or three times and only on high-value detainees. The captured perpetrators already had significant evidence against them as terrorists, and the interrogation using water-boarding was used to corroborate what was known, as well as suspected, and to wring any further information.
Those thirty-five seconds may have seemed an eternity to the captured suspects, but they yielded quite a bit of intelligence in a fairly humane manner. Probably the worst punishment for them was in exhibiting fear, and thus losing face.
41 mindknumbed kid // Dec 11, 2007 at 8:37 pm
danimal - #38 is too good!
Seriously folks, it apprears to me that those who are so outraged over waterboarding are looking at the world through rose colored glasses. I’m an American, I don’t have to worry about those terrorists, I am safe just because I am here in America.
42 danimal // Dec 11, 2007 at 8:39 pm
Hey - the terrorists didn’t destroy their torture via beheading videos.
Of course, seeing a “leaked” video of CIA agents pleading with and saying ‘pretty please’ to terrorists in comfy chairs would be met with more “moral” outrage on Al Jazeera and their sister network, CNN.
43 JamesonLewis3rd // Dec 11, 2007 at 8:41 pm
RE: #39~~
Exactly. There is no comparison. None.
This whole non-issue is a smokescreen, a red herring, a strawman, a non sequitur, an ad hominem, even, thrown out as camouflage under which to subvert the United States of America through the incessant, not-so-subliminal mantra that the USA is evil.
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.~~Romans 1:25
44 MajorDomo // Dec 11, 2007 at 8:44 pm
Real men aren’t turned off by efforts to extract information from the enemy, in order to secure safety and prevent further deaths to one’s own side. Wimps, on the other hand…
45 mindknumbed kid // Dec 11, 2007 at 8:47 pm
Well - we do allow babies to be murdered in the name of choice……
46 mindknumbed kid // Dec 11, 2007 at 8:51 pm
Put on your glasses and drink the kool aid, there ain’t no bad guys out there!
47 mindknumbed kid // Dec 11, 2007 at 8:55 pm
BUSHITLER was the force behind the WTC and the jihadists are only here to save us from ourselves.
48 mindknumbed kid // Dec 11, 2007 at 8:59 pm
“John Kiriakou says that he thinks waterboarding is torture”
Oh yeah, the mindknumbed kid THINKS that going to work @3:00AM is torture…..
49 Effeminem // Dec 11, 2007 at 9:03 pm
As long as they only torture I mean waterboard criminals and unlawful combatants, I’m fine with it. The thing is, cops tase people / shoot dogs / rough people up all the time. It’s inevitable. I don’t particularly want to hand out the ability to torture to anyone, including Valerie Plame and SPC Snuffy, unless we know they’ve done something to deserve it. So far, most or all of our subjects have been terrorists.
I would be much happier if a warrant were required in most cases.
50 mindknumbed kid // Dec 11, 2007 at 9:06 pm
YOU are the final authority, it all depends on what YOU think, opinions are like certain body orfices, everybody has one and most think theirs is always perfect,never flawed.Most get their opinions by feeeeeling,” gosh, I feel bad that someone got waterboarded” so it must be bad.
51 mindknumbed kid // Dec 11, 2007 at 9:20 pm
I’d be much happier if we could just hunt down the bad guys that are our sworn enemies and kill them until they are dead, I consider that being proactive, and seeing as they are for our destruction it doesn’t bother my conscience to take that position. If there is an “innocent” fellow there that is just running a business, selling them bullets, nukes,etc. and he gets killed too, I’m alright with that too.
But we are dealing with cowards, those that have no honor, they are too chicken to wear a uniform or clearly identify themselves as an enemy. That is why some innocent are victims of this war, or that someone who is innocent could potentially be waterboarded. But that is the enemy we face, these people have a long record of cowardice in battle, in using innocent people to do their dirty work. You can’t be nice guys and defeat them, you can’t be nice guys and defend yourself against them. That is why we have to deal with them in a realistic,effective manner.
52 Effeminem // Dec 11, 2007 at 9:37 pm
I don’t feel bad about waterboarding. I would gladly allow public flogging, branding, dismemberment, and more extreme methods of torture that Ott-sensei would redact if I were to mention them. I just can’t countenance torture of someone who *might* be a terrorist. Of course there are always extreme circumstances, but the jury can sort those out later.
And, as long as I have use of a ballot, gun, or at least two limbs, my opinion does matter.
53 mindknumbed kid // Dec 11, 2007 at 9:50 pm
Completely off topic - In today’s Casper Wyoming newspaper was an article about two new power plants projects that are being scrapped, you guessed it global warming fears and feared future emissions regulations are the culprit. What about an affordable adequate supply of electricity ? What about the jobs that we could have to support our families ? The article said that “top scientists are nearly certain that carbom emmissions are contributing to warming”.
I’m not so nearly certain that they are “top scientists” or that the warming is any more linked to carbon emmissions than it is to the emmissions coming out of the elected officials that congregate in the nation’s capitol.
54 mindknumbed kid // Dec 11, 2007 at 10:01 pm
as per camojack #33 - “torture leaves marks”.
Torture involves physical suffering and harm.
Soiling one’s brittches is just embarrassing.
An enemy combatant has no right to our legal protections under the laws of our constition, or our bill of rights. If they are legal citizens then charge them with treason and put it on fast track to a trial. Anyone convicted of treason should get the death penalty period. I take my country seriously, I have no place for anyone that joins forces with an enemy.
55 mindknumbed kid // Dec 11, 2007 at 10:15 pm
However, I do not condone ahy form of genuine physical torture under any circumstance. Civilized humans do not do that to another human being.
56 mindknumbed kid // Dec 11, 2007 at 10:49 pm
18.5 hours is enough for me today, I’z goin’ to bed…..
57 Godfrey // Dec 11, 2007 at 10:51 pm
JL3 “This whole non-issue is a smokescreen, a red herring, a strawman, a non sequitur, an ad hominem, even, thrown out as camouflage under which to subvert the United States of America through the incessant, not-so-subliminal mantra that the USA is evil.”
Assuming you’re aware of your own masterful use of irony…bravo!
Beerme: ”If a few moments of simulated drowning…will produce information that will save more lives and help defeat the terrorists, I can hardly complain about it.”
I think there are certainly moral reasons not to condone torture, but I, too, would probably be willing to look the other way under certain circumstances (i.e. where we were certain the prisoner in question is knee-deep in terrorism and he had information about an imminent threat)…if I could be convinced that torture was effective.
I’m not convinced, however. There are experts on both sides of the argument who say that torture does or does not produce results…so it’s hard to know whom to believe. In all likelihood it is a hit-and-miss thing; sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t. But how do we know which it is, and when?
Also, torture seems to have so many negative ramifications beyond the immediate situation. As a practical matter it would be very, very helpful if we could claim the moral high ground. If we justify torture for any reason we tend to lose that advantage. A nation that uses torture as a military tactic will find it hard to paint their enemies as the bad guys…especially in the Muslim countries, where that perception would be the most beneficial to us.
Actually, though, I think the best argument against torturing potential terrorists is that it plays into the terrorists’ hands. Using fear to induce victims to alter their own social values is exactly…exactly…the reason terrorists do what they do in the first place.
Should we allow ourselves to be so easily manipulated?
58 Fred Sinclair // Dec 11, 2007 at 11:58 pm
NBC Surprised! 83% of Americans believe in God! More surprising - 85% of those Americans, are church members; 12% are members of some weird cult; 2.4 % are Christians and .6% believe god is hovering in the “Mother Ship” behind the moon.
Heirborn Ranger
59 Fred Sinclair // Dec 12, 2007 at 6:00 am
It is past time for the replacement of “Political Correctness” with “Moral Correctness”. By taking God out of the classrooms and courtrooms we have sowed the wind, so there should be no amazement now that the whirlwind is being reaped. Children raised without discipline, “if it feels good, do it.” There are children in our midst that are the whirlwind.
Without a moral compass for a guide, the recent shootings at schools and churches are as predictable as day and night. The media is continually asking, “Why?” - the answer is clearly detailed in the Bible, probably the very last place they would ever look.
The recent shootings are merely the top of the tip of the iceberg, we will have many, many more and they will still be asking “Why?”
Prov. 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. (KJV)
Train up a child amid an environment of moral turpitude; ergo - the whirlwind. Totally predictable.
Heirborn Ranger
60 mindknumbed kid // Dec 12, 2007 at 10:20 am
Amen Fred !
61 JQ // Dec 12, 2007 at 1:02 pm
Re: 34
Sorry for the quote, but it’s short:
“Blatant mischaracterizations of my comments using rote Leftist Spin serves only to bolster my point.”
I quoted your words in their entirety, so they “spun” themselves.
As for the “rote Leftist Spin” that you refer to, I think anyone who’s seen my posts in this forum in the past would consider me anything but “Leftist”.
I just happen to believe that there’s good and bad on both sides of the political aisle; to overemphasize one or the other as absolutely good or absolutely evil is to intentionally misrepresent them, which is tantamount to lying.
You can have your opinions; just remember that the Republican Party is not mentioned in the Bible. I’m a Christian Republican myself, but I don’t believe that my party was supremely ordained by God as the political party for the nation. I don’t delude myself into believing that our party is without flaws; congressmen fall from glory every day.
All political ideology is governed by man (in the “mankind” sense of the word, ladies), and man is inherently flawed. That’s all I’m saying. Don’t allow politics to share a throne with God.
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