(2006-12-05) — Despite weeks of leaks indicating the Iraq Study Group would call for retreat and diplomatic talks with Iran when it releases its report Wednesday, Defense Secretary-nominee Robert Gates, at his senate confirmation hearing today, called for a three-step plan to solve the crisis:
1) Bomb the Mosques
2) Seal the Borders
3) Slaughter al-Sadr
Mr. Gates, former director of the CIA, said he would counsel President George Bush to abandon his “stay the course” strategy in favor of what is known, in military terminology, as “find the evil people who hate you and kill them.”
“Civil war is not breaking out in Iraq,” Mr. Gates said, “civil war is breaking in.”
To end the foreign-funded fighting, and to protect the only democracy in the heart of the Muslim world, he said his Pentagon would “nail the evil, murderous ringleaders as well as the foreign governments who supply them with men, money and materiel.”
“If confirmed,” said Mr. Gates. “I will instruct the U.S. Air Force to bomb any mosque whose Imam has his own army, or where weapons are stored, or from which gunfire originates. Our satellites will monitor every mile of Iraq’s border, and fighter jets will target any groups or individuals crossing into Iraq without passing through authorized checkpoints.”
“Finally,” he added, “Shiite Muslim cleric Moktada al-Sadr, whose Mahdi Army numbers in the tens of thousands, will be captured, beheaded and buried with 72 virgin hogs at a pig farm in Israel. The video will be posted at YouTube.com.”
90 responses so far ↓
1 Iowa Voice // Dec 5, 2006 at 1:11 pm
Quote Of The Day…
I know Scrappleface is pure satire, but sometimes he hits the nail right on the head with his commentary. Take this, for example:
“Civil war is not breaking out in Iraq,†Mr. Gates said,  
……
2 Scott Ott // Dec 5, 2006 at 1:19 pm
Gates: Bomb Mosques, Seal Borders, Slaughter al-Sadr…
by Scott Ott(2006-12-05) — Despite weeks of leaks indicating the Iraq Study Group would call for retreat and diplomatic talks with Iran when it releases its report Wednesday, Defense Secretary-nominee Robert Gates, at his senate confirmation hearing….
3 Zim // Dec 5, 2006 at 1:22 pm
If only we would have the guts to actually do this…
4 RedPepper // Dec 5, 2006 at 1:24 pm
72 virgin hogs ?
Animal cruelty !
([BLEEP]ing neo-cons …)
5 otter // Dec 5, 2006 at 1:26 pm
Reality has finally sunk in.
6 Jack // Dec 5, 2006 at 1:28 pm
Scrappleface - the true “realist”.
7 gafisher // Dec 5, 2006 at 1:34 pm
“Civil war is breaking in.”
Absolutely spot on, Scott! Bravo!
8 Darthmeister // Dec 5, 2006 at 1:36 pm
Why that would be like FDR declaring war on Germany and Japan! We can’t commit war crimes like that. The next thing you know King George will want to put Muslims in internment camps and censor all our mail!
We must continue speaking truth to power.
9 Darthmeister // Dec 5, 2006 at 1:38 pm
…who does Bu$Hitler think he is, A DEMOCRAT??? What arrogance!
10 Ms RightWing, Ink // Dec 5, 2006 at 1:58 pm
Sounds like war to me. I am already saving the bacon grease for the arms manufactures and use my gas rations carefully.
How about that, sounds like I need to plant a victory garden.
11 Maggie // Dec 5, 2006 at 1:58 pm
RedPepper #4…….funny…..:>)
12 jimmytheleg // Dec 5, 2006 at 2:07 pm
Wouldn’t it be nice if the lame stream media was reporting the news in such a way that POTUS and SecDef could say these things w/o being labeled as war-mongering fascists?
13 onlineanalyst // Dec 5, 2006 at 2:20 pm
Now that’s what I call a plan!
14 conserve-a-tips // Dec 5, 2006 at 2:45 pm
Alright! Let’s rollllll!!!!
Funny, Redpepper, re. #4. I wonder if the cemetary would be filled with ghostly refrains of “Oh my darlin’, oh my darlin’, oh my daaarlin’ Clemenswine.”
15 camojack // Dec 5, 2006 at 2:58 pm
I was just saying to a co-worker last night that we could easily do “surgical” strikes on Iranians loading ordnance onto trucks for shipment to Iraq. It’s not as though we don’t have live satellite surveillance of those activities.
We could and we should.
(Or, just let Israel do it…)
16 da Bunny // Dec 5, 2006 at 3:13 pm
It would be great if this article were true!!
17 GnuCarSmell // Dec 5, 2006 at 3:52 pm
Beheading al-Sadr is too cruel. Something more humane is called for — say, bludgeoning him with 72 Virginia hams.
18 Fred Sinclair // Dec 5, 2006 at 3:56 pm
A grin from today’s JWR:
“Democrats were warned by restaurant owners and retailers Thursday not to raise the minimum wage by two dollars an hour as they promised during the election campaign. Where’s their Christmas spirit? What American worker couldn’t use another two dollars an hour to pay off the coyote who brought him across the border?”
19 Darthmeister // Dec 5, 2006 at 4:42 pm
#17 GnuCarSmell,
What a waste of good ham.
20 seneuba // Dec 5, 2006 at 5:19 pm
Mmmmmm… thinking “A Sadr-bacon-and-cheese sandwich would be good right about now”
21 egospeak // Dec 5, 2006 at 5:24 pm
Hmmmmm…
Bomb the Mosques. Makes sense.
Seal the border. Makes more sense.
Slaughter al-Sadr. Makes the most sense…
thats why none of it will ever happen. Oh well…
Regards,
22 mig // Dec 5, 2006 at 5:49 pm
Civil war is breaking in… hahaha
Hey I am all for bombing the enemy, well, over there. I don’t know if I would feel comfortable with missles taking out CNN or the NYTimes, although the deserve it for causing us to have loss of life and victory. If it weren’t for them the troops would be coming home already… VICTORIOUS!
23 Darthmeister // Dec 5, 2006 at 6:07 pm
Here’s an excellent interview with zombie, an anti-anti-war liberal who has produced thousands of photographic images of the utter insanity of the anti-war hate-Bush/blame-America crowd. Apparently zombie blends right in an is able and willing to produce damning imagery (including violence) that the lamestream media studiously ignores when it “covers” these rallies.
I’ve enjoyed zombie’s work the last two years and he/she (zombie hasn’t revealed his/her gender for sake of anonymity) has some very good insights into the nature of the GWOT and the narcissistic denial these moonbats at your typical left-wing protest rallies are engaged in.
24 Fred Sinclair // Dec 5, 2006 at 6:14 pm
re: 22. “………if it weren’t for them the troops would be coming home already… VICTORIOUS!”
Beautifully stated mig! Simply beautiful. The Liberal Left dominated media has had as much to do with our continued presence in Iraq as the terrorists we are fighting.
Liberalism never dies and never goes away or as Rush stated “Liberals are Liberals” that sums it up as simply as it can be stated.
Heirborn Ranger
25 egospeak // Dec 5, 2006 at 7:25 pm
Speaking of Rush…
He had a real moonbat kool-aid drinker on the show, I think it was the last part of the first hour, who gave all the usual liberal nonsense about Iraq and the GWOT and finally said it was all Israels fault.
Rush asked him if he thought the War on Terror would end if Israel was eliminated as a state and the Jews were dispersed into Europe. The guy actually said yes, and from the way he said it I think he really meant it.
Talk about not having a clue. If people like him get elected to national office we’d all better start practicing our Muslim prayers.
Speaking of Muslim prayers, did everybody hear about the Muslim woman who got offended at a gym in Detroit because she wasn’t allowed to say her prayers there?
Makes sense to me… I always go to the gym to pray and Church to work out… but that’s just me.
Regards,
26 mindknumbed kid // Dec 5, 2006 at 8:25 pm
Alright Mr. Gates, LET’S ROLL !!
Repeat after me folks, All good things that come to pass is thanks to the brillient minds in the Dimmocrat-tick party. All that is wrong - Blame Bush.
If you check it out it was really Bush that stopped that muslim woman from praying in Detroit.
Matthew 6:5
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Matthew 6:6
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seethin secret shall reward thee openly.
Matthew 6:7
But when ye pray, use not vain repititions, as the heathen do: for they thinkthat they shall be heard for their much speaking.
27 onlineanalyst // Dec 5, 2006 at 8:43 pm
Is there something about listening to the Satanic beat of aerobics class music that brings out the urge to pray? Do juggling Indian clubs and climbing the frustratingly endless trip on the Stairmaster® make the believer cry out for mercy from Allah? Does that Downward Dog pose in yoga class naturally lead to the blurring of an exercise mat to a prayer mat?
Or does this woman simply need to get some assistance in time-organizational skills? Scheduling a workout that does not conflict with mandatory prayer time would go a long way in demonstrating personal responsibility.
Drip…drip…drip The challenges to our Westernized ways are eroding our common sense and outrage at accommodation to the perpetually offended Muslims among us.
28 Cricket // Dec 5, 2006 at 10:57 pm
In our dreams.
29 JamesonLewis3rd // Dec 6, 2006 at 4:27 am
ScrappleFace is a Finalist in the 2006 Weblog Awards in the Best Humor Blog category! (Voting begins Thursday.)
Congrats, Scott!
30 RedPepper // Dec 6, 2006 at 8:34 am
Hi, Cricket ! A (pre-emptive) Merry Christmas to you !
31 Deerslayer // Dec 6, 2006 at 8:55 am
This is “THE PLAN”. If only Scott had written this prior to the elections, There wouldn’t have been a republican seat lost.
This is actually the most common sense plan that has been presented in like forever.
Hello Washington…is anyone there???
32 JamesonLewis3rd // Dec 6, 2006 at 9:34 am
In case anyone is interested, the ISG’s report will be available (downloadable PDF) here at 1100 EST.
33 Ms RightWing, Ink // Dec 6, 2006 at 9:37 am
Good Morning fine folks
34 Darthmeister // Dec 6, 2006 at 9:52 am
Gates: Bomb Mosques, Seal Borders, Slaughter al-Sadr
In the eyes of liberals Gates would then equal Hitler. In fact any attempt to win any future American war would be equal to Hitler - unless it was a war to keep liberals safe and fat in their soft beds…oh wait, they’re against that now!
FDR 1944 - We haven’t won the war against Germany, but we haven’t lost it either.
Media Headlines: FDR Says America Not Winning War!
35 Maggie // Dec 6, 2006 at 9:54 am
Good Morning Ms Righty,
OT…May I encourage you all to log onto
MychalMassie.com or
http://www.wnd.com
He is a a featured writer for World Net Daily and is one of the best I’ve ever read.This weeks colorful commentary features Bro.Al Sharpton. Mr Massie doesen’t mince words and each paragraph rivets you to the page. I would heartly recommend giving him a read and he will soon become a favorite.
(This is an unpaid public service announcement)
36 Maggie // Dec 6, 2006 at 10:06 am
ps….MychalMassie.com
is the best choice, as his commentaries are published on Tuesdays.
37 JamesonLewis3rd // Dec 6, 2006 at 11:17 am
Here’s that report.
38 Darthmeister // Dec 6, 2006 at 11:28 am
Tale Of the (F)lying Imams.
Excellent deconstruction of a despicable attempt by the lamestream media, aided and abetted by the Department of Homeland Security, to turn the rank lies of the six flying imams into a civil rights case.
39 wildhowd // Dec 6, 2006 at 11:43 am
With all respect to President Bush this should have actually been done 3 years ago
40 Laughing@You // Dec 6, 2006 at 12:22 pm
The Iraq Study Group says the most we can hope for is to hold-down the ciaos long for a government chosen by the Iraqi people, to develop the means to put a lid on the civil strife themselves.
Wow, is that what all those lives were lost for?
Can we even be assured that this government not be at least as hostile to the United States as Saddam’s government was?
41 JamesonLewis3rd // Dec 6, 2006 at 12:32 pm
So far, since I haven’t read the entire report, I’m not impressed.
One thing this report has accomplished, unfortunately, is to make Pelosi even more nauseating (she’s so sick, she makes me sick). Her hatred is unreal.
“If the President is serious about the need for change in Iraq,” she said in a statement, “he will find Democrats ready to work with him in a bipartisan fashion to find a way to end the war as quickly as possible.”
What garbage.
42 RedPepper // Dec 6, 2006 at 12:35 pm
JL3: I don’t understand. What’s not to like about Bela Pelosi ?
43 Laughing@You // Dec 6, 2006 at 12:36 pm
The Iraq Study Group must be a group of terrorists supporting Defeatocrats! Everthink, maybe they are Islamofacist too?
I bet Henry has! That’s it, they are traitors!
Go with Dumbyah being wrong about everything has never even slowed his swagger.
44 JamesonLewis3rd // Dec 6, 2006 at 12:39 pm
The President is under no compulsion to implement the ISG Report’s suggestions (or even agree with its conclusions).
45 Laughing@You // Dec 6, 2006 at 12:40 pm
Bush will resign within the next six months!
46 Cricket // Dec 6, 2006 at 12:59 pm
Lest anyone think I hate Iraqis, I don’t. We are in this and we are doing it in such a way as to lose face, respect and yes, morality in the eyes of the world.
We have to make a stand. We were not ‘allowed’ to flatten Fallujah, although that is something that in hindsight we should have done…but we have another chance to redeem ourselves and we get…this?
We have to be clear, and with that comes the obligation to be surgical. We will always have some collateral damage and that comes as part of the price of war.
We should just make it very clear that we will do our best…the Phrench are already dhimmis as are the Germans and other members of the EU. The host countries don’t like it but they are too afraid to stand up to jihadists.
The reason that rioting on the scale that it happened in France last year won’t happen here is that the second it does, I know hyah in Jawjuh the citizens will be deputized and armed before that second elapses.
47 Hawkeye // Dec 6, 2006 at 1:08 pm
Wow! Now there’s a plan I can go with. Excellent Maestro Scott!
mindknumbed kid #26,
Terrific reminder from Matthew 6 on the nature of “true religion”.
Oh, and Scott. Congrats. We must be the Flintstonesâ„¢ kids or sumptin’
“10,000,000 strong… and growing”
(:D) Regards…
48 RedPepper // Dec 6, 2006 at 1:11 pm
#46 Cricket: Regrettably, we won’t do much of anything until and unless we develop the will to acknowledge the realities that we face .
Tomorrow is the 65th anniversary of Pearl Harbor … ” A day that will live in infamy ! “
Food for thought …
49 JamesonLewis3rd // Dec 6, 2006 at 1:12 pm
Page 40 of the ISG Report:
We agree with the goal of U.S. policy in Iraq, as stated by the President: an Iraq that can “govern itself, sustain itself, and defend itself.†In our view, this definition entails an Iraq with a broadly representative government that maintains its territorial integrity, is at peace with its neighbors, denies terrorism a sanctuary, and doesn’t brutalize its own people. Given the current situation in Iraq, achieving this goal will require much time and will depend primarily on the actions of the Iraqi people.
Dare I say it?
DUH-UH!
50 Maggie // Dec 6, 2006 at 1:31 pm
Congratulations from # 10,002.546
51 RedPepper // Dec 6, 2006 at 1:35 pm
JL3 #49: To quote John Podhoretz :
This is the consensus view of the Iraq Study Group, which is very proud that it reached consensus.
Its members also reached a consensus view that Depends is a really fine brand of adult diaper, and that they love reruns of “Murder, She Wrote.”
52 RedPepper // Dec 6, 2006 at 1:37 pm
Hey there Maggie ! How is NC today ? Warmer than NY , I hope !
53 GnuCarSmell // Dec 6, 2006 at 1:46 pm
Any report in which a retired geriatric judge advises on matters of war should be taken very seriously. I am in awe.
54 mig // Dec 6, 2006 at 1:52 pm
heh heh Can’t help myself. I can’t stay on topic ever. I try but I gotta tellya- this video clip is hysterical. Carters face is priceless. He hasn’t a clue what is being said to him…
http://us.video.aol.com/video.full.adp?mode=0&pmmsid=1786314&referer=http%3A//television.aol.com/franchise/top5.adp
55 Ms RightWing, Ink // Dec 6, 2006 at 2:03 pm
Liberal Alert number 4,789
I was sitting in the waiting room of radiology this afternoon when the Iraqi Run and Hide Report was announced. When the female type announcer said the plan was to withdrawal by 2008 a younger-middle-aged dude yelled (in panic),”What! Two more years. What the hell is going on.”
I wanted to tell him to go home and take your meds but when I finished the page of the book I was reading he was gone. Likely had a liberal stroke and crawled down to the ER. Good place to have one, I reckon.
Watch out and report liberal strokes as you see them. We need a good laugh
56 Darthmeister // Dec 6, 2006 at 3:07 pm
I would have started laughing, Ms RightWing. Do these liberals really believe Pelosi and Reid have the power (much less the desire) to pull the troops out of Iraq? Already the Donks, in concert with the liberal media, are painting as dire of a picture of Iraq now so that when the Donks take Congress and as normal progress is being made in Iraq and things do start looking better in the next six months to a year, the libs will be able to crow that it was through their efforts/braintrust (despite the fact they will not have done a single substantive thing to “turn the tide of war”) that America is finding itself winning in Iraq.
Jimmy Carter gets ripped here for his falsehoods and half-truths about the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.
Makes me regret even more for having voted for this lying moron back in 1976. With his left-wing rants this partisan hack has placed himself on an international stage which greatly damages Israel and any real prospect for peace by emboldening the Palestinian terrorists with lies sympathetic to their desire to murder all Israeli Jews if it were within their power.
57 Darthmeister // Dec 6, 2006 at 3:22 pm
Excerpts from an interview with zombie, a liberal who sees the light:
Interviewer:Anti-war protestors (and trolls) want media attention and try to look/sound outrageous to get it, but then find themselves looking ridiculous which may be counter productive to their cause. What’s your view?
Zombie:To be frank, I think that most of them are insane. Actually, literally insane. In the spring of 2004 there were a lot of soccer-mom types attending the anti-war rallies, but what happened is that they saw the virulence and irrationality of their fellow protesters, and never came back. Since that time, every subsequent protest has gotten smaller and smaller, as the sane people peeled away. By now, at the end of 2006, the only people that go to these rallies are the hardcore lunatics.
I know that may seem harsh, but I have lived in this milieu my whole life, and just about everyone I know is a radical. So I’m not speaking as an outsider, criticizing the “freaks.” Speaking as an insider, they really are out of their minds. Yes, that includes many of my friends as well — they may act normal one minute, and then go off the deep end the moment any political topic arises.
Update from Zombie:
Firstly, by my analysis, we are in fact no longer fighting a “war” in Iraq. The Iraq War lasted only a few weeks, during which time the US forces overran the country, defeated the Iraqi Army, and seized control of the government. War over. Everything that has happened since then is either a “mopping up” operation, pacification police work, and/or trying to suppress a separate internecine civil war that broke out two years afterward. So, though I know I’m going against commonly accepted wisdom, I would challenge the very concept that the US is fighting a war in Iraq right now at all.
Secondly, the media is now stating that the “war” (as they put it) is “unpopular,” based on the results of the mid-term elections, with the Democrats gaining some seats. Midterm elections are NOT national elections — they are a series of local elections all scheduled to happen at the same time. If one looks at each of the Democratic gains in Congress, one can see that about half the seats were picked up because the Republican candidate was involved in some kind of damaging scandal, and the votes were more about personality and integrity than each candidate’s political positions. And most of the remaining Democrats who won did so by running to the right of the Republican candidate.
Only in a handful of cases was the Iraq “war” a campaign issue, and in those races, there was no clear victory for the anti-war side (Lamont lost to Lieberman, for example, and Webb and Allen ended in a virtual tie). The left-wing media wants us all to believe that the vote was a referendum against Bush, but I reject that as sheer “spin” with no basis in fact.
If only all liberals were this clear thinking.
58 conserve-a-tips // Dec 6, 2006 at 4:57 pm
OK, so I just got off of the phone with a friend of mine whose daugther is engaged to a Marine serving his third tour of duty in Iraq. I asked what his assessment of the situation is…and here it is in a nutshell:
Either get in there and overwhelm and get the job done or give up and go home. It seems that the soldiers are feeling like a limp dolly being pulled between two dogs. And they are being dragged back and forth so much that they can’t do their job. They feel that they, if allowed, could go in and surgically strike alot of insurgent strongholds, and they could, if allowed, take out AlSadr and they could, if allowed, round up a boatload of bad guys. They want overwhelming force. But our boys and girls are feeling like they are stuck in the middle of a second war that is taking place right here on our own soil and that is the war in Congress. How sad. It is Vietnam all over again. Congress trying to run a war instead of allowing the military to do the job.
As she put it, this recommendation says to draw down the troops to 70,000. Sooo, if 150,000 can’t contain the radicals and our boys are getting killed, they think that 70,000 will do the job with less kids getting killed? Right. Lets just draw down all of the policemen in the middle of Detroit and leave a handful to handle all of the gangs. What imbeciles. What maroons.
These people are control freaks…that is all there is to it.
59 Maggie // Dec 6, 2006 at 5:33 pm
C.A.T
The soldiers and Marines from our church who are pulling duty in Iraq, say basically the same thing.Are they all wrong?
I once saw a bumper sticker that read “get in or get out”.That should be our motto concerning this war.
60 Maggie // Dec 6, 2006 at 5:38 pm
RedPepper re#52,
Hey! back atcha’.The weather ranged from low 30s to the low 60sand just needed the heat on early this morning. Great pansy weather.
61 conserve-a-tips // Dec 6, 2006 at 5:44 pm
Maggie, here in Okieland it goes more like “Poop or get off the pot.” I cleaned it up a bit.
62 JamesonLewis3rd // Dec 6, 2006 at 5:47 pm
Yes. It’s like Political Correctness gone mad. The only reason we didn’t stomp their (the bad guys’) guts out in the first place was to avoid offending the “sensibilities” of the whiners and haters.
Now, those same whiners and haters are strutting and salivating and proclaiming a most bizarre “victory,” claiming (by picking and choosing and spinning sentence fragments) this lame Report as their mandate to further erode/destroy every standard that made this country the greatest the world has ever known (or will know).
63 Ms RightWing, Ink // Dec 6, 2006 at 6:18 pm
Ever wonder why Ohio libs walk about in a daze. It’s the smoke man
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/10476393/detail.html
cough
64 Darthmeister // Dec 6, 2006 at 6:49 pm
Let me get this straight, now we’re to “change course” and negotiate our way, to cut-and-run our way, to appease our way out of Iraq? An absolute recipe for disaster! Now it IS starting to look like Vietnam.
It’s like I said three years ago, the question is: Do the baby boomer American people still have the will and resolve to win a war, any war? And the answer increasingly looks like, “No.”
God help us.
I would like to further clarify my view of the “Iraq War”. Like zombie, I believe, and the facts bear us out, the war against Saddam and his regime was a spectacular success and was accomplished within a matter of three weeks. It was as spectacular as the war against the Taliban in Afghanistan. But unlike zombie I believe we are still engage in a war in Iraq but it is a war against Islamofascism - whether we are referencing the Islamic sectarianism engaged in by the Sunnis and Shias or the terror of al Qaeda terrorists who are still there in what I think are decreasing numbers as even Iraqi Sunnis and Shias are killing off these foreign terrorists.
What clearly happened was the steel fist of American might was put back into the velvet glove just as al Qaeda, Iran and Syria began sending their terrorist lackeys into Iraq to stir up trouble shortly after the downfall of Saddam’s regime. This was perceived as a sign of weakness by pampered infidels unwilling to go mano-a-mano with brave jihadists.
The administration should have immediately identified this next phase as fighting as an extension of the Global War on Terror and pursued the enemy just as vigorously as it did Saddam’s regime and the Taliban - breaking things and killing the enemy despite whatever obstacles stood in the way. Obviously the low-grade policing action didn’t work as well as some minimalists thought it would and it should come as no surprise since we know Muslims only respect overwhelming power since anything less is perceived as a weakness of infidel cowards governed by misplaced notions of “western civility”.
Now we have this supposedly blue ribbon panel of people wanting to embrace an even more idiotic losing gambit that is little more than Dick Nixon’s “peace with dignity” withdrawal … and we saw the aftermath of that in the late 1970s. But in this case there are enemies who have far grander designs than merely securing Muslim lands.
If Bush caves, the liberals will get their wish of an American defeat in the face of an implacable foe and within our lifetimes we will see things far worst than 9/11 as the left embraces defeat as a political talisman to their promise land of milk and honey … and eventual dhimmitude. And it will always be “Bush’s fault” for standing up to Muslim terrorist and tyrants in the first place. Remember, Americans rarely think further than their next meal or next sexual conquest, whereas radical Muslims think in terms of decades and centuries.
And it still looks like a “moderate Muslim” willing to stand up to Islamofascists is a very rare commodity.
65 Godfrey // Dec 6, 2006 at 7:29 pm
CAT: “Either get in there and overwhelm and get the job done or give up and go home. “
That’s the whole problem with this war and it has been from the beginning. We kicked the bejeezus out of Iraq during the initial invasion. If we had had enough men and resources to seal the borders, quell the insurgents and protect the Iraqi citizens from the outset this thing would probably be over by now. That we didn’t do that is not so much due to bickering within Congress as it is the fault of Donald Rumsfeld and, yes, his boss, for failing to adequately plan for the inevitable aftermath.
They should have known/anticipated:
1. Iran and Syria would take advantage of the situation by sending in agents and fomenting insurgency.
2. Various international terror groups would flood Iraq with foreign “fighters” and terrorist cells to destabilize the country.
3. WMD might not exist or Saddam might successfully destroy/remove them from Iraq.
4. Regional anti-US media outlets like Al Jazeera would capitalize on the negative imagery to inflame Arab opinion.
5. The majority of pacifist Europe would be less than helpful if things started to go south.
6. The American public would put up with the war only so long as it appeared that progress was being made.
These things are all simple politics, age-old truths that any half-wit could deduce would be part of an occupation in that part of the world at this time in history. In other words they are things the administration should have known and should have planned for. I agree that it doesn’t help that we have a Congress that seems intent on backing out of the conflict (which I think we all agree would be a complete disaster). It has a definite corollary to Vietnam; fighting a “half-war”, especially “on the cheap”, is a recipe for failure.
But the blame for this mess should be placed on the shoulders of the men who started the war and the men who ultimately prosecuted it so poorly. They are more responsible for this mess than anyone.
66 bystander // Dec 6, 2006 at 7:35 pm
It is not appeasement, it is the application of reason and common sense to a situation that is fast going down the drain.
“And it still looks like a “moderate Muslim†willing to stand up to Islamofascists is a very rare commodity.”
I strongly agree with you on that point and have sent e-mails to Islamic organizations pointing that out. Unfortunately not a one ever responds !
The “steel fist” as you put it is wearing out its equipment and the military is not replacing it appropriately.
The “steel fist” also has a few big holes in its Humvee armament thanks to the likes of Mr Rumsfield and his budgetary minions.
67 Godfrey // Dec 6, 2006 at 7:35 pm
Hank: “it still looks like a “moderate Muslim†willing to stand up to Islamofascists is a very rare commodity.”
I’m certainly not convinced that modern Islam is capable of moderation or liberalism in the short term, but here’s a link to some people who are trying.
68 egospeak // Dec 6, 2006 at 7:37 pm
re: 56
Jimmah Catah, the only man to hold the dual distinction of being America’s worst President and worst ex- President.
Now that has to take some real talent. Even Nixon (the devil incarnate as far as most libs were concerned) couldn’t pull that one off.
Jimmy Carter, “Stuck on stupid!”
Regards,
69 Darthmeister // Dec 6, 2006 at 7:54 pm
Godfrey, the cause was noble and originally it was properly executed. The initial success was brilliant but once again America proves it has no staying power, no thanks to the gotta-have-it-now McDonald’s generation. I just didn’t think Bush was one of them. But from what I’ve seen by way of documentation, virtually every overall commanding general in Iraq said they had enough personnel and firepower to get the job done. I just read recently where a Marine general stopped sending out sniper teams that were killing ten to twenty “insurgents” at a time because about 18 months ago a seven Marine sniper team was ambushed and several two-man teams were ambushed, leading Marine commanders to discontinue sending out the highly effective two-man teams. We’re giving up the battlefield, getting more Americans killed because American battle commanders became more timid and somewhere in the chain-of-command from the Commander in Iraq to President Bush a decision was made to start fighting a minimalist policing action. Go in and get the job done with overwhelming force or get out. But its really too late just to “get out” without turning this into a liberal’s dream of another turn-tail-and-run Vietnam.
70 Godfrey // Dec 6, 2006 at 8:52 pm
Hank: Go in and get the job done with overwhelming force or get out.
Well, that’s exactly what I mean. That statement is basically the Powell Doctrine, which Rumsfeld completely ignored.
As for commanders having “enough” forces, that would depend on the job they’ve been given by the administration. Most would agree that a) we didn’t have enough forces to seal the borders (immediately, as should have been done) and b) we didn’t have enough forces during the first few weeks to truly pacify the country and protect its citizens from lawlessness.
Other mistakes are debatable, such as disbanding the military (aligning a bunch of highly trained combatants with the insurgents) and allowing militias to remain and thrive.
As I mentioned a few days ago, a rereading of Machiavelli’s “The Prince” gives a whole new insight into this war. He is very specific about how to pacify a conquered country, telling how the Romans were successful in doing so primarily because they left parts of the conquered nation’s government, institutions and day-to-day life in place.
Apparently Rumsfeld never read the book.
Since Machiavelli died almost five hundred years ago it’s difficult to cast him as a shill for the Democrats. Yet his writings show clearly that the mistakes Rumsfeld (and Bush) made were very basic errors that could only be made by someone who was ignorant of military history.
71 JamesonLewis3rd // Dec 6, 2006 at 9:01 pm
I contend that the Iraqi army was not “disbanded”; rather, they all (or most) abandoned their posts and did not return.
72 bystander // Dec 6, 2006 at 9:12 pm
“I just read recently where a Marine general stopped sending out sniper teams that were killing ten to twenty “insurgents†at a time because about 18 months ago a seven Marine sniper team was ambushed and several two-man teams were ambushed, leading Marine commanders to discontinue sending out the highly effective two-man teams.”
Now I saw a video recently on these same Marine Sniper Teams that was a little contrary to this reasoning. The video I saw stated that these sniper teams were very successfull at first and now no longer are because the bad guys came to know the buildings these snipers operated out of and learned to stay out of the line of sight.
“..the Romans were successful in doing so primarily because they left parts of the conquered nation’s government, institutions and day-to-day life in place.”
I noticed that we did not do that early on and could not believe the incredible stupidity of that decision. It would have made sense to at least leave a part of the military and police forces in place (especially when we were and still are so short of Iraqi language experts) and not encouraging them to flee with the wind in all different directions. Then when we weed out the bad members.
73 Godfrey // Dec 6, 2006 at 9:54 pm
JL3: “I contend that the Iraqi army was not “disbandedâ€; rather, they all (or most) abandoned their posts and did not return.”
Not true. To be sure, they did melt into the population initially but rather than encourage them to join the coalition forces and help with the rebuilding of their country the CPA more or less thrust into the role of insurgents. What, I wonder, did the CPA expect armed, trained and suddenly unemployed soldiers to do when they had been cast aside in this manner? If only 10% of the 300,000-strong army joined the insurgency that’s still a very substantial number; not to mention the foreign fighters that were bleeding through the borders.
Anyway, as I said, the wisdom of the decision is debatable but the fact of the decision is not. According to General Peter Pace, the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs (and to Wikipedia) the Iraqi Regular Army was formally disbanded on authority of Paul Bremer.
74 JamesonLewis3rd // Dec 6, 2006 at 10:10 pm
Okay. Bremer disbanded it.
75 conserve-a-tips // Dec 6, 2006 at 10:11 pm
To all you guys discussing the subject, the more I conjecture, the more I realize that even though Saddam’s downfall was the intended initial gift, the real reason that it became necessary to go to Iraq was to have our presence in the middle east and close to Iran. I think that the problems with Iran have been fomenting for a long time - since the 70’s - and I will bet that intelligence had numerous items of info on just how dangerous it was becoming. I also believe that the administration, as had the past administration and all in Congress, were given facts indicating that Saddam was developing WMD’s (he had used them on his own people) and so the focus was on him…but I think that there was a huge, unmentioned focus on Iran and Syria as well.
I am frustrated with the president in that he is fast becoming like his father. No communication with the people and timid at laying down the law. There is a time to negotiate and then there is a time to “just say, ‘no’.” The Bushes seem to be able to say ‘no’ initially, but then they get cold feet, like a lot of parents, and don’t follow through. Where are our Reagans and our Trumans?
76 conserve-a-tips // Dec 6, 2006 at 10:16 pm
Well, and while I am talking about not doing what you say that you are going to do, here is how the children respond to such predictable parents.
77 bystander // Dec 6, 2006 at 10:19 pm
“Where are our Reagans and our Trumans?”
Good point ! I never appreciated Truman when he was in office - my loss really.
78 conserve-a-tips // Dec 6, 2006 at 10:29 pm
Well, evidently you didn’t appreciate Bush either. He started out as a Truman, but didn’t have the Missouri mule-headedness to see it through.
79 conserve-a-tips // Dec 6, 2006 at 10:31 pm
If you want a really good read, Off The Record-The Private Papers Of Harry S. Truman, is incredible. I know that you don’t want to hear it, but if Truman were president today, the Democrats would have disowned him and called him a traitor to the party. They would have called him an evil conservative - because he was.
80 puzzletop // Dec 6, 2006 at 11:17 pm
To gaze at the smugness of Ted Kennedy ask if we are losing in Iraq and then watch Mr. Gates obediently respond, “Yes, sir.” made me fear for our future and our children now that the Democrats were so happy to be in control and calling the shots on this gray-haired puppet face man. I am glad my hope is not in puppet-men but still in Christ or else it would look as all of America just went into the Chapaquidik.
81 Darthmeister // Dec 7, 2006 at 12:15 am
Andrew McCarthy talks some strong medicine that many Americans won’t want to hear. There is still a war on terrorism to fight and some of it is being fought in Iraq this very day.
Godfrey, for all practical purposes the Iraqi Army ceased to be a cohesive fighting force and essentially disbanded itself. Like you said they melted away into the general population. Yes the Iraqi Army was formally disbanded by Bremer but isn’t it possible that a post-war army/police force composed of old army Sunni Iraqis wouldn’t have resulted even in more sectarian violence when the minority Sunnis, in all probability, would have continued lording it over the Shias?
And how would this army numbering in the hundreds of thousands have been paid from day one to keep it cohesive? And certainly the chain-of-command that swore allegiance to Saddam couldn’t be trusted. So who would have led these troops. Not Americans because old army Iraqi troops aren’t fit to be commanded by American officers.
There was a much greater potential for corruption within the ranks and their Sunni commanders certainly couldn’t have been trusted to be even-handed in dealing with the Shia populace.
The Shias would have seen this as merely the continuation of the same ol’ same ol’ and I doubt even the three elections that have taken place would have taken place if the Sunnis were perceived by the Shias to “be back in control”. And “control” in the Arab Muslim eyes is determined by who is running the biggest army or militia. The vast majority of Iraqis would have seen such a reconstituted Sunni army as another betrayal by America. In all liklihood Iran would have further fanned the flames among Iraqi Shias by claiming the fact the Sunnis were still “in control” was proof that Great Satan America only wanted a “puppet government” so that it could take Iraq’s oil or whatever basely accusation could be made.
82 Darthmeister // Dec 7, 2006 at 12:16 am
Drat, the dreaded html gaffe.
83 Darthmeister // Dec 7, 2006 at 12:29 am
The Medieval Warming Period from 1000 AD to 1400 AD must have been the result of proto-SUVs.
Scientific researcher pooh-poohs the irrational hysteria that today’s global warming is the result of human activity.
84 camojack // Dec 7, 2006 at 5:14 am
The Medieval Warming Period from 1000 AD to 1400 AD must have been the result of proto-SUVs.
Scientific researcher pooh-poohs the irrational hysteria that today’s global warming is the result of human activity.
Comment by Darthmeister — December 7, 2006 @ 12:29 am
The term “global warming” is as passé as the “global cooling” that preceded it in the 70’s; the terminology du jour is “climate change”…so you can blame it for anything and everything.
(Kind of a “one size fits all” theory)
That Medieval Warming Period that you cite is something that I first encountered HERE. Amazing…
85 Darthmeister // Dec 7, 2006 at 5:49 am
True camojack. Even global warming critics are using the term “climate change” now.
bystander, even in the article I linked to, the Marine commanders were in CYA mode claiming that the Iraqi “battlefield” was no longer a target-rich environment. However, there have been Marine snipers who have complained on milblogs that they aren’t being allowed to do the job they were trained to do, that they are always prodding their superiors to be allowed to do that job and are willing to take the risks and believe that even if each team were to kill just one or two targets a week the cumulative effect would seriously degrade the capabilities of the bad guys over the long haul.
But here’s the conundrum for the no-war people. Unless one is in total denial of the reality of the rising tide of Islamofascism, despite how one feels about the “Iraq war”, we are presently fighting Islamic radicalism in Iraq and Afghanistan. And even if we cut-and-run from those two countries we are still left fighting the global war on jihadism and simply ignoring this rising threat isn’t going to make it go away.
Continuing to blame this administration for the radicalism of Islam is like cutting off ones nose in an attempt to spite another man’s face. Muslims haven’t been getting along with Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Christians and one another for a very long time, far longer than the Bush Administration has been in existence. Even if partially unsuccessful, you don’t blame the doctor for trying to excise a malignant cancer. The reason radical Islam was in remission for so long was it didn’t have the weaponry available to it to match its aims of conquering the world for Allah. And post-WWII, Muslim and Arab nations have been acquiring more and more weapons of increasing sophistication with their oil money and now even the jihadists bred in those hellholes believe this is the time to strike for Allah, particularly if America (and other western nations) prove to be a paper tiger by cutting-and-running.
86 Doctor Poddy // Dec 7, 2006 at 7:39 am
Iraq report…
The CNN/BBC is spinning this as Bush’s defeat and America’s cut and run.This does not bode well for Asia, who have been fighting Islamofascism for decades.Scrappleface has the best idea.too bad killing the bad guys is no longer politically……
87 bystander // Dec 7, 2006 at 11:20 am
“Well, evidently you didn’t appreciate Bush either.”
You are right - not the current Bush !
88 Pros and Cons » The ISG Report, condsidered. // Dec 7, 2006 at 6:47 pm
[...] UPDATE: NPR is better than most of the MSM in sampling people with opinions that matter and in it’s own analysis. Scrappleface’s Scott Ott had cruel but funny things to say, twice. [...]
89 mindknumbed kid // Dec 7, 2006 at 9:50 pm
2 Peter 3:10 addresses the climate change that ought to be of concern to many these days.
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
vs 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conservation and godliness,
vs 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, whereinthe heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shallmelt with fervent heat ?
vs 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
90 Chicago Boyz » Blog Archive » Another Idea // Dec 11, 2006 at 11:06 am
[...] Jay Manifold’s discussion is a bit more detailed than Scott Ott’s but the latter has a certain simplicity. [...]
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