Too bad she didn't just settle for a pair of shears (you know what I mean). At least, that way, she could be sure he wasn't trying it again...

Second

Lets refrain from discussing the above procedure. As much as I detested bill Clinton, I dont think anyone deserves that cruel and unusual punishment

Rapists deserve that procedure.

Yeah, that's how I'd put it:

"the situation was much more serious than he had previously acknowledged"

'course, I'm not a Rhodes scholar.

Be careful kellyds that might be construed as a threat to an expresident..hahahahahahaha...that would really make him bite his lip..hahahahahahaha

Oh what the heck....Bill got away with political murder... so why shouldent she get away with just plain murder????

Bill apologized to Hillary for lying, now will Hillary apologize for lying about the VRWC? Oh wait, this isn't the Twilight Zone.

I don't find this amusing at all!

I don't either!

Yeah, but watch - soon people will be quoting this piece (and others like it) as if it were actually excerpts from the real book, and it will become part of the American consciousness.

"Nearly confess?"...."virtually vulnerable?" Was she smoking crack?

They're all lying. It was I, ALGORE who slept with interns. It was I, ALGORe, that supervised the cover up. It was I that gave away secrets to the Chinese and I who recieved the kick back donations. I really ran the White House. I
invented the internet and was its sole user for the firts 10 years of its life. I hate cars. I love trees. But I hate tree burning cars...I am supreme.

Yeah. I "nearly" care about her reaction to anything. Though her career being the topic to soothe her after finding out he lied does not surprise me.

What about me?
They say I killed myself but there was no blood or slug at the scene of the crime,call Ronnie Browns travel agent,he knows all!!!

I didn't find the 8 years of clinton amusing either. The best punishment for bill would be to force him to live in a small studio apartment with his wife for 8 years. Locked in, no way out, her doing the cooking, and cleaning. No TV, only a radio playing Rush Limbaugh, the knobs ripped off.

Such a touching story about a scorned woman's courage to overcome her husband's infidelity and stick with him out of love(!?!).

Yea, right! Until you realize that:

1. She's selling a book.
2. Her running for Senate and staying married to Bill are inseparable. (Hillary for Anti-Christ!)
3. She's full of it.

Who was the ghost writer on this piece of garbage, Jayson Blair?

"Inappropriate Intimacy"? If he had taken her up to the Lincoln Bedroom, would that have been more appropriate?

"Brief and sporadic" sounds pretty descriptive.

Why won't the Clintons just go away?

If she knew nothing about what was going on, how come she had separate quarters when he was the Gov. Its about the money and prestige with her. How come she defended companies that were polluting our water. Lets get to the more important issues.

The Lincoln Bedroom may not have been more appropriate, but at least it would have been more comfortable. Would eliminate that pain he was feeling all those years as Skirtchaser-in-Chief.

If Hillary really wanted to be President, she should have killed Bill, had a revelation, renounced her liberal agenda, and joined the Republican party. She'd have been elected in a landslide.

Well Cassandra she certainly fits the moral code for a Republican.
Blue blooded,elderly scamming,stock market cheating,land swindling,election stealing,terrorist dealing scumbag!
Is she related to the Bush family somehow?
Is Neil Bush still married?

New York Times: Here is an excerpt from Hillary Rodham Clinton's new book.

"Bill came to me and said, Hill, I'm sorry, I have had an affair with, 'That Woman', Monica Lewinski! I could not catch my breath, I was gulping for air, I was screeching like a barn owl, like some kind of neutered boar hog, I kept saying, What are you saying? I wanted to wring Bill's neck, ---after all, he knew how much Monica and I were in love!"

'Please Believe', Jayson Blair!

In a completely unrelated story:

Los Angeles Times: Movie Actor and AARP Heart-throb, Harrison Ford was given a star on The Walk of Fame yesterday. It replaced the star originally given to a silent screen star, of the same name!

No word yet weather it was a new star, or simply the same one that was there, polished up a bit.

When asked, what he thought of taking away the star, that had been previously given to him, silent film star, Harrison Ford II, (who has been dead since 1957), remained silent!

In chapter 2, Bill reveals to Hillary, that Chelsea is NOT really her's!

I support weapons of mass destruction being used on the Clintons. Always have.

Chris:

Do you always lump all Republicans into the same basket? Gee - no prejudice here. Well, let's see if I fit your profile:

Blue blooded? Are we referring to breeding or riches?
Well, I have neither. And of course neither did FDR, JFK, Ed Kennedy, John Kerry (richest man in the Senate), Lyndon Johnson (remember Lady Bird?), Al Gore...well, you get the idea.

elderly scamming? Not that I'm aware of. But then I don't know what you're talking about here.

stock market cheating? Well, I don't own any stock - just govt. bonds (yes, I'm stupid enough to want to support the US govt. even though I don't get as good a rate of return). And wasn't Enron one of the largest contributors to Clinton's campaign - and to the DNC?

land swindling? Hmmm...just own my home, which was purchased legally. But it's not called Whitewater or anything fancy like that.

election stealing - Well, doesn't apply to me, but Al Gore tried his darndest to keep my and my husband's absentee votes from being counted in Florida (my husband is active duty Marine Corps).

terrorist dealing scumbag! Him...like when Clinton had the chance to get Osama extradited from the Sudan and passed it up?

Chris,
terrorist dealing

You got that one right. Republicans are the only ones that deal with the problem of terrorism. Democrats are way too weak and feckless, which has been demonstrated time and time again.

Scott: don't read this, it's a surprise! A friendly post hijack: Those who wish to go sign my e-card of congratulations to Scott Ott on the occasion of his one millionth visitor are invited to do so. I will delete any negative or far off-topic comments from the final version, which I intend to give Scott this weekend. And don't tell him! It's a surprise!!! (My payback to the guy who brought you the "Encourage the Troops" post. Thanks Scott.)

Bill and I had 'relations', MANY TIMES! And if Hillary's book does well, I will write one of my own!As anyone knows, the public loves the 'spicy stuff'. That's why ALL the news media is talking about today is Hill's book. Do you really think if they had reported anything else in the book, there would be this much talk?

It's a tease, like showing you the 'only' good lines from a movie, in the preview, everything else 'stinks'! But my book, about making 'Bubba' dress like a girl, and bark like a dog, will be ALL action!

Just to expand a bit on the quote ...

"He almost admitted that he lied to me. None of the other women ever heard him nearly confessing that. He was virtually vulnerable with me. I know now that I'm his most cherished colleague."

I knew then that I was special. He'd never almost admitted anything to any woman before. Ever. He'd certainly never almost admitted to Gennifer what he told me ... that he found her bottle blond hair laughably phoney, or that he used that "tennis ball through a garden hose" line about all the women.

He'd never admitted to Paula that those so-called "curves" of hers were perfectly ordinary.

And there were too many things to list that he'd never admitted to Monica, Kathleen, Stephanie, Gloria, JoEllen, Marianne, Carol, Kitty, Joan, Betsy, Edith, Mabel, Debbie, Dora, Laura, Linda, Nicole, Stacey, Chris, Kris, Krissy, Thelma, Tonya, Terri, Maureen, T'Kani, Helen, Harriet, Cindy, Cindae, Amber, Ginger, Felicity, Patti, Karen, Denise, Shannon, Cheryl, Elizabeth, Wanda, Maggie, Peggy, Toni ... I'll have to get back to you with the rest.

Besides, when I knew there wouldn't be any effect on my polling numbers, not only did I not care, but I felt that special feeling starting deep inside me ... one I hadn't felt since the first thrilling rush of planning universal health care. It was gripping my entire body again, yes, and it burned hotly inside me, spreading from my very core and leaving me limp and gasping.

I was perspiring and trembling. I looked up at him my eyes smoldering, my voice hoarse. I heard myself whisper ... "Please. Please. More poll numbers ... "

TO BE CONTINUED

don't...stop...

Thanks for clearing my name Cassandra and great job putting those nasty democrats in their place.

By the way I have some land for sale in Arizona,would you and you family care to invest?

We do business with Silverado,its a lock,after all you know who my daddy is dont you?

Remember me?

My grandaddy refered to me as one of ""the little brown ones""

My daddy is governor of Florida and owes ambassador err secretary of state harris a debt of gratitude.

Uncle George is president.

Anyone got any crack they can front me while I'm drying out on xanax?

Hilary doesn't care about the other women. Its like Bill is only playing golf. Hil doesn't care whose green Bill is putting around on.

Need I say more?

Weekly World News

I wonder if the poster who signed him/herself Neil Bush would have been offended if President Bush, the grandfather, had referred to his son George's daughter as the "blonde one"?

It's the poster who is a racist. Identifying a child (or adult) as the "brown one" or the "blonde one" or the "apple-cheeked one" or the "nappy haired one" is descriptive, not derogatory.

What must it be like to live in the body and mind of these racist, politically correct, hypocrits who spew so much hate?

C'mon Chris - are you off your meds again? You know you have to take them regularly if they're going to have any effect.

Did we ever bother to read the results of the recount? The one that said that if the rules AlGore wanted had been followed, W would have won the election???

Oh - maybe you didn't see them because they were so deeply buried by the media over here.

Just keep parroting what the press and the DNC tell you - if you say it often enough, it could almost be the truth.

Go ahead erp.

Call me a spook,you might as well after the nappy hair comment!

"... he almost admitted that he lied to me. None of the other women ever heard him nearly confessing that. He was virtually vulnerable with me. I know now that I'm his most cherished colleague."

What a sad and pathetic marriage they have, I feel sorry for both of them.

Cassandra,

Why did you link to the Guardian article? It said that most Florida voters wanted Gore.

Oh well, at least you didn't link to this guy

"Looking back," she wrote, "That was the moment that sealed our special relationship, because he almost admitted that he lied to me. None of the other women ever heard him nearly confessing that. He was virtually vulnerable with me. I know now that I'm his most cherished colleague."
*****************************************
This is an actual quote?? I will have to read this book.

His most cherished colleague . . . not "his wife."

She knows her stock is tied to him. Divorcing him would have cratered her chances. A modern day marriage of convenience for power and position.

What would King George say about this?

Daisy dont you dare try to dazzle these people with facts,theyre the real Americans ya know and they dont like people messing around with things like the truth!

The Guardian article said that:

1. That if the Supreme Court had allowed a recount, Bush would have won.

2. That under the existing electoral laws in Florida at the time, Bush would have won.

3. That under the rules accepted by the Gore campaign at the time, Bush would have won.

I find it ironic that Chris thinks an election was "stolen" when the recount Gore wanted would have elected Bush, the rules Gore agreed with would have elected Bush, and the only way Gore could win was by ignoring the electoral law of Florida (in other words, throwing out the rules). Last time I checked, you have to play by the rules - if you don't, that's called cheating. Gore also wanted to not count military absentee ballots because he thought that would increase his chances of being elected.

Part of the rules are that you have to follow the directions and complete your ballot correctly. You don't get to "infer" voter intent - it is the responsibility of the voter to make that intent clear. And on the issue of the machines - they are the exact same machines used to elect Richard Daley - the loudest voice condemning the voting machines and saying that any election using those machines should be in doubt (oddly enough, this did not apply to his own election).

So the point is, Bush would only have won if you are so closed minded and prejudicial that you only count the legal, valid votes that clearly show for whom you voted.

But -- those enlightened Dimocrats would allow us to take a vote made improperly, hire a psychic to tell who the vote was intended for, then declare Gore the winner.

Yup. The second is obviously the much better system, and provides a valid basis to claim the winner of the "valid" vote counting system stole the election.

KJ

ky
where where you in 11/00.

Me and the majority of the country couldve used you after we got Bushed.

Oh yeah

Now theyre saying that my people arent bright enough to vote and if we were we obviously meant to vote for the nazi Pat Buchanen?

Denial,it isnt just a river in Egypt,its the Republican way of doing business before the impending indictments.

Good God, Chris - just how many personalities do you have?

Dr. Stuhl:

Help me out here. My knowledge of deep psychoses is limited...

Several Miss Cassandra.

Anyone know when myself,Roy and the rest of us GOP delegates from Hee Haw are gittin our D.C. invite from gee dubya?

Palmy,
If your folks were so inept and/or stupid to punch a hole in a piece of paper, then they shouldn't be voting.

And of course the enfeebled Alzheimer patient got to vote for the canditate he/she wanted even though he/she thought it was 1948. "I want to vote for that nice Mr. Truman!"

Give it a rest, your guy lost according to the Federal election laws. Stop whining and do something about it in '04.
Or better yet, just keep on complaining, do nothing, and the Republicans will win again.

Your choice.

I hope none of them are afraid of inconvenient facts...

This stuff went on wholesale in Florida. Maybe that explains why so many had trouble filling in a ballot.

Alrighty

Of the 10million Cubans in Florida,how many voted for Al Gore?

Come on Cassandra,we expect more out of you than the typical ""[dang!] immigrant"" routine and as far as the ins goes,werent they the ones who renewed one of the 9/11 hijackers student visa under the watchful eyes of the gop?

Did anyone get the plate of that truck that hit me?

Why are the letters FRUIT OF THE LOOM pressed on my forehead?

Who's dating Sonny ""o no"" Bono's missus?

I never said anything about "[ ] immigrants" - the article is talking about voter fraud.

read carefully:

"One "obsolete regulation" that bit the dust in 1996 was the longstanding (since 1907) requirement that a prospective citizen demonstrate a knowledge of English."

***might be key in following directions, huh?

A September 1996 hearing by the Congressional Committee on Government Reform and Oversight's National Security Subcommittee on "Naturalization Testing Fraud" documented that the Clinton-Gore administration looked the other way while federal contractors across the nation were fraudulently certifying English-language illiterates as having met citizenship standards.

One contractor, the Naturalization Assistance Service (NAS), conducted an estimated 200,000 tests annually. A NAS test was effectively a multiple-choice exam with test takers also asked to write a mere two sentences in English. Just one of those two sentences need be correct. Yet as ABC's 20/20 (THAT BASTION OF CONSERVATIVE THOUGHT) reported in 1996, the NAS English test was still too onerous for many of the people who paid to be in a NAS classroom.

A concerned NAS employee, Jewell Elghazali, complained that large batches of tests were written in identical handwriting. Ms. Elghazali was fired. Just how many more forged tests were transformed into certificates of English competence? No one will ever know.

Citizenship USA and wholesale voiding of naturalization requirements weren't the only Clinton-Gore efforts to undermine the integrity of the political process. Thanks to another Clinton-Gore program, the National Voter Registration Act of 1993, better known as the Motor Voter law, we may never know how many votes were improperly cast in the 2000 election by ineligible people.

Motor Voter was nicknamed "Auto Fraudo" because it created a series of incentives for rampant vote fraud. States were required to give voter-registration applications to anyone who applied for a driver's license or welfare benefits.

For example, in Illinois, the state's department of public health boasted in a 1995 press release that "as required by the National Voter Registration Act, WIC staff ask clients 18 years of age and older if they are registered to vote at their current address."

The voter-registration form may state that U.S. citizenship is required and may even include a notice of penalties for perjury. But these requirements are hardly likely to discourage vote fraud. (Can an illegal alien be expected to confess his ineligibility to vote to a DMV clerk?)

Motor Voter forced states with previously strict voter-eligibility requirements, like Florida and Missouri (to pick two examples not at random), to effectively accept anyone's word that they were eligible to vote.

By 1996, 45 states had complied with Motor Voter requirements. And that is when we started to hear about noncitizens illegally deciding elections. Illegal voters defeated Bob Dornan in 1996. The following year, the Miami mayor's race was overturned, also on the basis of widespread absentee-ballot fraud.

The Indianapolis Star reported on November 5: "Tens of thousands of people appear on the [Indiana] voter rolls more than once." A person need not be alive to be eligible to vote in the state: "More than 300 dead people on the rolls were discoveredÖ. One of those registered, a South Bend woman, died in April 1998 but was recorded as voting in that fall's general election."

On October 23, John Fund presciently warned on the Wall Street Journal's Internet opinion page that "ballot-box fraud may have real impact at the polls." He noted that "47 states don't require any proof of U.S. residence for enrollment." Fund also reported that "Motor Voter has added some eight million people to the rolls."

Those 8 million voters still weren't enough for the peace of mind of the Gore campaign. In a still-developing story first reported by WorldNetDaily.com editor Joseph Farah on November 6, the California Democratic party was apparently sending mailings, complete with a "personal Voter Identification Card" to unregistered voters in the state. The letter was written in both English and Spanish. You can see a copy of the letter here. The mailing in question was received by a noncitizen who had never been a registered voter.

***is the picture getting any clearer?

Put a big sign in English over the door to the polling place: If you can read this, you can come in: the password is Scrappleface (just an example).
If you don't know the password, you can't get in and vote.

(Leftist whine) But that's so unfair! What about immigrants who can't speak the language?

Then they can't, and don't deserve, to vote. Citizenship tests are, and should be, in English only. It is the official language of the country. If I were to emigrate to France (after my lobotomy) I would be expected to learn French before I became a citizen, and was allowed to vote.

(more whining) What about people who can't read?

With all the educational opportunities in this country (for free), if you haven't learned to read by now, then you are too stupid to be allowed something as important as a vote. (this does not include the visually inpaired, seriously dyslexic, etc.)

Should we change the voting laws? You bet. Let's make it harder. Here's some examples: must be a tax-payer to vote (use last years returns as proof); must serve im the military to vote (use form DD-214 as proof); pass an intelligence test.
Let's have some more form y'all out there.

I think you should get one vote for every beer you drink while waiting in the line at the polls. So much for Motor-Voter...

A simple cognitive test to determine if they know they're at a polling place would help.

It would drastically reduce the number of homeless and/or mentally ill that the dimocrats round up, pay five bucks and drive to the polls to vote for their latest poser, I mean loser.

Some I understand are able to supplement their income by hundreds of dollars during each election by travelling to various widely known dimocrat "recruitment sites" in larger urban areas.

Small wonder then that the dimocrats think the Republicans "stole" the election.

Wrong random guy.

Where in the world does it say anywhere that English is the official language of this country?

Cassandra,who do you think got the majority of the Cuban vote in Florida,after all we are discussing Florida and the Nov 2000 election arent we?

As far as changing the voting laws I am all for it.
You must be American by birth,you cant have a last name that ends in a vowel,you must make over 6figures a year in interest on your trust fund,you must be a free mason and you must be a Christian,not the vodoo worshiping Catholic kind or the [homosexual] marrying episcopalians either but a good ole fashion Baptist or Methodist kinda Christian.

Military service isnt required as long as youre enlisted and your dad is in congress and your grandad was a senator.

My kinda people baby.White Anglo Saxon and Prodestant.

After all,thats what the sign at Ellis Island says isnt it?

Chris:

"Military service isnt required as long as youre enlisted"

Enlisted in what? The Peace Corp?

FMM

Chris,
All official Federal documents (like the Constitution) are in English. The Congressional Record is in English. How many clues do you need?

Hey - my husband is not a [homosexual]! (Although if he were, it would be neither your business nor would it have any impact on his ability to vote.)

Gosh Chris - now that I think of it, you're right! You shouldn't have to be able to read or understand directions to vote - we'll just let people infer your intent from whatever mark you manage to make on the ballot.

Where are you getting this silliness about trust funds, free masons, and religion from? You've been spending too much time on wacko conspiracy theory websites.

I propose that perhaps you ought to be in this country legally, you perhaps should be alive, registered to vote (just once please), be able to read and understand the language the ballot is written in, heck - maybe you should even know who the candidates are!

You respond with the typical liberal nonsense that if you impose any restrictions whatsoever on the vote, you are trying to keep out minorities, non-Christians, homosexuals...none of which were mentioned in the article, but don't let that stop you. When you're losing the argument, just keep changing the subject and put words in the other person's mouth. That ought to distract everyone. Since we're on the subject, however, exactly which Republican has advocated any of this? Or can't you find one?

To Republicans, your religion is irrelevant, as is the spelling of your last name, whether you are born here or not (it does matter if you are here legally), whether you have ever served in the military, vowels (or the lack thereof) in your last name.

Not all immigrants to Florida are Cuban, Chris - might want to check up on your preconceived ideas.

Ya the peace corp or the texas air national guard,however if youre in the peace corp you will find more combat unless your name is Bush.

I find it sad,rather pathetic,that a man like George Herbert Walker Bush,a man who was a war hero,a real American,raised such horrible,selfish,cowardly children.

The old adage ""you plant potato's you get potato's"" doesnt apply to George Sr.
Does it apply to Ronald Reagan?

Patti Davis looks like a softball coach or lady bowler.And what about young Ron?

Would any of you leave your kids alone with this weirdo?

Cassandra - Chris (a.k.a. _________ fill-in the blank) is operating with Eyes Wide Shut.

Prayer is in order not persuasion.

Better to let him hang himself with his own foolishness than try to argue him into accepting the truth.

"Do not speak in the hearing of a fool, for he will despise the wisdom of your words." Proverbs 23:9

If you don't pay taxes (or are a stay-at-home spouse to a taxpayer) then you are a government dependent, and thus should not have a say in how it is run.
No income level was proposed. If you have a job, you pay taxes (a 16 year-old cutting lawns for cash has a job and should file Form 1099s quarterly, but I'm not that much of a hard-a**), even if you get them all back, you can still show that you are (or were in that tax year) gainfully employed.
What's wrong with military service as a guideline? If there are too many wimps (sorry "pacifists") then Peace Corps can equate. No mention of religion. Remember the First Amendment.
No fee for voting was mentioned, either. I'm kind of suprised you didn't say something about it.

Why should the only qualification be that you managed to keep breathing for 18 years, and are a citizen (although I don't think the Dems care about that one)?

It is too important to leave to people who barely bother to go vote if it is raining.

In an unrelated topic. WHat do you folks think about the (misguided) try at getting a Constitutional Amendment outlawing burning the US flag?
(My own opinion is cunningly hidden in the previous sentence)

I think Americans who do burn the flag should be censured by their fellow citizens. I think they should be scorned. I think abuse (verbal) should be heaped upon them. I think the practice shows a disgusting lack of taste and respect.
But...
We should not Amend the Constitution for something this trivial.

any comments?

SRG: Agree that flag burning is childish, but it doesn't rise to the level of requiring an amendment to the Constitution. Given the time/effort/cost, I wonder if there will ever BE another amendment to the Constitution?

Chris:

Did you just give Bush Sr. a back handed compliment? I think Reagan's kids are bizarre, but then lots of kids of famous parents don't turn out too well.

Dang it Scott, she is not from Arkansas. It's bad enough that we have to claim Bill.

SRG:

Quit giving cover to Chris by changing the subject. Note, by the way, that the 5 Supreme Court justices protecting the flag burners under the first amendment are majority "conservative." No suprise who really supports first amendment rights today.

Chris:

Since when did military service become a rally cry of the left? Vietnam and the draft was messed up from what I can tell (I was a child -- and apparently the reason my father wasn't drafted). It isn't "fair" that some people had the influence to get somewhat protected positions in the national guard, but it was done within the rules. That beats the draft dodging, touring of England of Clinton.

KJ

What is the procedure to dispose of old and tattered flags?

I for one find it difficult that the smartest woman in the world, getting an insider trading tip from Eleanor Roosevelt on those cattle futures, couldn't see that her husband was having an affair.

I also find it silly that her version of damage control was to blame the vast right wing conspiracy. I think she had a deal with Teflon Bill: Don't embarrass me with the bimbos and I won't come out with what I think about 'other' women.

But when she saw that 'standing by her man' was going to help her political career, I think it tamed the shrew.

SRG, I hope you're joking about military service as prerequisite to voting. Sounds like a story from from Bizarro Scrappleface written by a liberal.

18 years old and a citizen. Those should be the only qualifications (okay, I can live with "and not an ex-felon").

Our Constitution specified that blacks and women can't vote, and a black person is 3/5 of a white person when it comes to determining Congressional representatives. Fortunately our civilization has progressed since then.

Yeah, flag burning shouldn't be outlawed in the Constitution. That doesn't mean I don't have a problem with it though. Speaking of which, take a look at this picture.

Daisy - You need to read the Constitution. No where does it say that blacks and women can't vote. The word 'male' did not appear until the passage of the left's cherished 14th amendment. The 3/5 clause was in reference to slaves not blacks.

It was the Northeastern elite that ensured that the slaves would be recognized as 3/5ths a person not the Southerners. Of course had the South gotten its way they would have had a longer control of the lower Congressional house so the 3/5ths clause actually served to bring about yankee political control that much earlier serving liberty not hindering it.

The Ceremony for Disposal of Unserviceable Flags was approved through Resolution No.440, by the National Convention of The American Legion meeting in New York, New York, September 20-23, 1937, and has been an integral part of American Legion ritual since that date. The resolution reads as follows:

WHEREAS, Americanism has been and should continue to be one of the major programs of The American Legion; and

WHEREAS, The observance of proper respect for the Flag of our country and the education of our citizenry in the proper courtesies to be paid the Flag is an essential element of such Americanism program; and

WHEREAS, It is fitting and proper that Flags which have been used for the decoration of graves on Memorial Day be collected after such service, inspected, and worn and unserviceable Flags be condemned and properly destroyed; and

WHEREAS, The approved method of disposing of unserviceable Flags has long been that they be destroyed by burning, but no ritual for such destruction or ceremony in connection therewith has been adopted by The American Legion or included in its official manual of Ceremonies; therefore be it

RESOLVED, By The American Legion in National Convention assembled in New York City, September 20-23, 1937, that the ritual submitted herewith be adopted for use by The American Legion and that it be made the official ceremony for the destruction of unserviceable American Flags and to be included as such in the Manual of Ceremonies, Revised, of The American Legion.

Ken Stein - Do you notice in your picture link the slight smiles on the two men in the background following the extension of the flag burning exercise? Either Massoud agents or Islamists who get a kick out of suffering, eeh?

Betsy - Hoping that all the Leggionaires don't end up in violation of a future Constitutional amendment.

If you're a Heinlein fan, the idea of one's voting status (or citizenship for that matter) depending on military service isn't all that radical a concept. But I'm with Daisy on this one - our society doesn't have its back up against the wall like the Spartans did (and hopefully we won't be invaded by Bugs anytime soon), so I think we can be a bit more inclusive.

I don't think you should have to have served in the military - there are many fine people who are totally unsuited to military service but are nonetheless intelligent and make fine citizens and voters. And there are other professions who serve the nation and contribute greatly to its welfare.

Actually I think the founding fathers wanted property ownership to be one of the prerequisites for voting (which would have left women and blacks pretty much out of it, as neither were allowed to own property). The idea was that you should have a stake in the nation's welfare or some commitment to its well-being.

But I agree with SRG that there is nothing wrong with having some standards - voting is NOT a right - it is a privilege and a responsibility. I think if people are caught engaging in voter fraud, they should lose their voting privileges.

We are not a democracy, as so many people insist - we are a constitutional republic (I hope - I'm sure one of the lawyers will correct me if I'm wrong). Our nation is founded upon the rule of law, not the rule of men; and our laws are not supposed to be changed capriciously or because one special interest group pitches a fit. Or to generate a supply of potential voters for a particular party.

End of rant :)

I hadn't noticed that. Which two? All I see are lots of people, can't see any smirks. Picture's a little too dark for me to see that. The idiot who burned the flag definitely got what he deserved, though.

Ken:

Your picture belongs in a biology textbook under the heading "Natural selection in action"...

As LilKimIl would say, it also caused me to amuse my reverse side away extremely.

welllll, li'l ladee.... us poor folks out here in the country are less inclined to get our underwear in a bind over these kinds of things... after all, we look at our politi-shee-ans as more of an entertainment than anythin' else... kinda like movin' pictures, without all the sex and violence, a' course...

well, then I figger that might leave the Clintons
in a sorta more interestin' place than most...

aw, shucks -- but don't let that stop yez from comin' out and see what I dun brung ya in my truck!

Daisy/chris: You have Gorejacked this thread. Under the Balloon Juice rules of the Blogsphere, you have lost your debate and now must leave.

Before you do, might I suggest you try to find some way to promote your cause instead of wallowing in self-pity over the 2000 election? It's a little pathetic. Hey, here's am idea: Why don't you organize a grass-roots effort to repeal the 22nd amendment? Have fun!

Cassandra (and others) --- The vote of the individual in our Republic is a right and it, like other God given rights, can be voided by society in the interest of that society.

Voter fraud, a felony in most states I believe, would if the state statutes so indicted of convicted felons preclude one from voting.

And yes I do agree that voting, like all rights, such as the right of life also comes with cooresponding responsibilites, such as in the case of voting being an informed voter.

:-)!

In regard to what the founding fathers wanted regarding who in society could exercise the right to the franchise they left that matter principly to the states. The states did indeed mostly reguire property as a prerequite (Woman could not inherit from husbands until NY changed its laws in the 1790's) There were however numerous blacks that owned property by the time of the Constitution and increasingly, though in disproportionate numbers to their percent of property ownership, blacks voted in the Northern states as time progressed.

>>>---after all we are discussing Florida and the Nov 2000 election arent we?

This is why you Dimocrats lost the last two elections, and will lose many more. We WERE talking about Hillary 'Big Butt' Clinton, untill you, (being the liberal spin-doctor, DNC shill, that you obviously are!), hi-jacked the thread!

Little chrissy, are you a:

1. DNC shill?
2. A Hillary the Hog worshipper?
3. A lonely Dim, with TOO much time on your hands?
4. An ACLU Attorney, with no bogus case to file?
5. Hillary the Hog?
6. Terry McAuliff?
7. A NAMBLA disciple?
8. Sybil?
9. A 'Product' of the NEA? OR,
10. The Corporation for Public Broadcasting?

chrisf1221@attbi.com: Do you have a job? Is it Union related? Maybe with the AFL-CIO?

Here's a little trick the AFL-CIO uses at election time. First they get list from their locals of their union membership, sort out which party each member registers under, then sends back the 'A' list, complete with addresses (Dim's and Dim leaners). Then on election day, each Local Union sends out, "volunteers", (that receive the days pay, courtesy of the Local's treasury), to "Get out the vote", knocking on doors encouraging, 'doing your civic duty', and offering rides to the polls! Need I say again that the ONLY houses that are contacted are of registered DIMS!

I know this because I was duped into doing this one year, before knowing that it was a 'Dimocrat Only' thing. At the end of the day, we all met at AFL-CIO headquarters for a fried chicken dinner, provided by the Dimocrat Congressional Candidate, who needless to say won re-election!

So much for Republican dirty tricks, EH Chrissy?

Distract her from fundraising?

Mr. Ott you obviously don't know the woman.

It would have distracted her from serving the people; doing the people's business.

Let me jump in here at this Chris character...

Actually, maybe the election laws should be changed. If an 8 year old can't vote, maybe an 88 year old shouldn't be allowed to either. Or, they should at least be able to bring their 8 year old along to help them, since the vast majority of 8 year old surveryed were able to pick Mickey Mouse off a similar butterfly ballot...which was, by the way, created by the Dimocrats...further proof that they truly are the party of the stupid.

And not just the party of the stupid...lets not forget the convicted felons. Remember the accounts of all the convicted felons whose votes were counted, and were almost entirely Dimocratic?

And even the left wing wacko and Clinton apologist Bob Beckel admitted that the media's premature call of Florida for Gore cost Bush thousands of votes in the panhandle (central time zone where the polls were still open for another hour).

I love it when the Dimocrats want to talk about W's war record and the Fla election, because you know they're desperate. You gotta love a Gore supporter who wants to talk about W's war record. Hey Chris...do you think Gore got a Purple Heart for those paper cuts he got while writing all those articles for the newspaper back home? Always back at headquarters, far from combat, bodyguard. Good thing he had that fat-cat Dimocrat for a daddy back home in the Senate. No wat Algore was ever gonna come close to combat.

Hey guys...If you think Chris is whining now...imagine the spectacle if he had to sit and watch a Republican official punch, fold, twist, and stab his ballot to try and end up saying that Chris INTENDED to vote for Bush.

Chris,

Read this

then get some help.

Both the British parliament and the US Congress are to investigate possible abuse of intelligence information in the run-up to the war in Iraq.

Is it more serious to lie about a blow job or about Weapons of Mass destruction ?

Congratulations to my best buddy, Allan Colmes, who 'tied the knot' this last week-end, with his lover, Bruce! The Ceremony was preformed in Vermont, (so it would be legal). Allan was last heard to say, "You want me to do, What,--with my What?"

Thanks Allan for letting me 'French', the 'Bride'!

Love and kisses, good luck, your pal, Frenchy!

Both the British parliament and the US Congress are to investigate possible abuse of intelligence information in the run-up to the war in Iraq.

Is it more serious to lie about a blow [] or about Weapons of Mass destruction ?

Frenchman, You suck!!!

Thanks Matt 'Goober' for helping me get the word out!

Congratulations to my best buddy, Allan Colmes, who 'tied the knot' this last week-end, with his lover, Bruce! The Ceremony was preformed in Vermont, (so it would be legal). Allan was last heard to say, "You want me to do, What,--with my What?"

Thanks Allan for letting me 'French', the 'Bride'!

Love and kisses, good luck, your pal, Frenchy!

THE LOGICAL FALLACIES (From Stephen's Guide to Logical fallacies)

Logical fallacies are errors of reasoning, errors which may be recognized and corrected by prudent thinkers.

FALLACIES OF DISTRACTION
APPEALS TO MOTIVES IN PLACE OF SUPPORT
CHANGING THE SUBJECT
INDUCTIVE FALLACIES
FALLACIES INVOLVING STATISTICAL SYLLOGISMS
CAUSAL FALLACIES
MISSING THE POINT
FALLACIES OF AMBIGUITY
CATEGORY ERRORS
NON SEQUITUR
SYLLOGISTIC ERRORS
FALLACIES OF EXPLANATION
FALLACIES OF DEFINITION

FALLACIES OF DISTRACTION

False Dilemma: two choices are given when in fact there are three options

From Ignorance: because something is not known to be true, it is assumed to be false

Slippery Slope: a series of increasingly unacceptable consequences is drawn

Complex Question: two unrelated points are conjoined as a single proposition

APPEALS TO MOTIVES IN PLACE OF SUPPORT

Appeal to Force: the reader is persuaded to agree by force

Appeal to Pity: the reader is persuaded to agree by sympathy

Consequences: the reader is warned of unacceptable consequences

Prejudicial Language: value or moral goodness is attached to believing the author

Popularity: a proposition is argued to be true because it is widely held to be true

CHANGING THE SUBJECT

Attacking the Person:
(1) the person's character is attacked
(2) the person's circumstances are noted
(3) the person does not practise what is preached

Appeal to Authority:
(1) the authority is not an expert in the field
(2) experts in the field disagree
(3) the authority was joking, drunk, or in some other way not being serious

Anonymous Authority: the authority in question is not named

Style Over Substance: the manner in which an argument (or arguer) is presented is felt to affect the truth of the conclusion

INDUCTIVE FALLACIES

Hasty Generalization: the sample is too small to support an inductive generalization about a population

Unrepresentative Sample: the sample is unrepresentative of the sample as a whole

False Analogy: the two objects or events being compared are relevantly dissimilar

Slothful Induction: the conclusion of a strong inductive argument is denied despite the evidence to the contrary

Fallacy of Exclusion: evidence which would change the outcome of an inductive argument is excluded from consideration

FALLACIES INVOLVING STATISTICAL SYLLOGISMS

Accident: a generalization is applied when circumstances suggest that there should be an exception
Converse Accident : an exception is applied in circumstances where a generalization should apply

CAUSAL FALLACIES

Post Hoc: because one thing follows another, it is held to cause the other

Joint effect: one thing is held to cause another when in fact they are both the joint effects of an underlying cause

Insignificant: one thing is held to cause another, and it does, but it is insignificant compared to other causes of the effect

Wrong Direction: the direction between cause and effect is reversed

Complex Cause: the cause identified is only a part of the entire cause of the effect

MISSING THE POINT

Begging the Question: the truth of the conclusion is assumed by the premises

Irrelevant Conclusion: an argument in defense of one conclusion instead proves a different conclusion

Straw Man: the author attacks an argument different from (and weaker than) the opposition's best argument

FALLACIES OF AMBIGUITY

Equivocation: the same term is used with two different meanings

Amphiboly: the structure of a sentence allows two different interpretations

Accent: the emphasis on a word or phrase suggests a meaning contrary to what the sentence actually says

CATEGORY ERRORS

Composition: because the attributes of the parts of a whole have a certain property, it is argued that the whole has that property

Division: because the whole has a certain property, it is argued that the parts have that property

NON SEQUITUR

Affirming the Consequent: any argument of the form: If A then B, B, therefore A

Denying the Antecedent: any argument of the form: If A then B, Not A, thus Not B

Inconsistency: asserting that contrary or contradictory statements are both true

SYLLOGISTIC ERRORS

Fallacy of Four Terms: a syllogism has four terms

Undistributed Middle: two separate categories are said to be connected because they share a common property

Illicit Major: the predicate of the conclusion talks about all of something, but the premises only mention some cases of the term in the predicate

Illicit Minor: the subject of the conclusion talks about all of something, but the premises only mention some cases of the term in the subject

Fallacy of Exclusive Premises: a syllogism has two negative premises

Fallacy of Drawing an Affirmative Conclusion From a Negative Premise: as the name implies

Existential Fallacy: a particular conclusion is drawn from universal premises

FALLACIES OF EXPLANATION

Subverted Support (The phenomenon being explained doesn't exist)

Non-support (Evidence for the phenomenon being explained is biased)

Untestability (The theory which explains cannot be tested)

Limited Scope (The theory which explains can only explain one thing)

Limited Depth (The theory which explains does not appeal to underlying causes)

FALLACIES OF DEFINITION

Too Broad (The definition includes items which should not be included)

Too Narrow (The definition does not include all the items which shouls be included)

Failure to Elucidate (The definition is more difficult to understand than the word or concept being defined)

Circular Definition (The definition includes the term being defined as a part of the definition)

Conflicting Conditions (The definition is self-contradictory)

Ooooo...Color me impressed. Frenchy can read from his logic textbook.

Heinlein's whole point in "Starship Troopers" of Federal service (not necesarily military) being a prerequisite of franchise was to limit it to people who cared enough about the governance of their society to sacrifice a couple of years to have a say in it.

That was my own motivation for enlisting: to "pay" for the vote and the rights given in the constitution. I considered it my duty.

For Leftists who are unfamiliar with this word, duty means: obligatory tasks, conduct, service or functions that arise from one's position; a moral or legal obligation.

I reasoned that, on a personal level, if I enjoyed the rights given by the Constitution, then I had an obligation to protect and defend the Constitution.

While I would not make service obligatory (it's voluntary nature makes it a good filter), I would make some sort of gesture of willingness to carry out the duties of citizenship a prerequisite for voting.

In other words: Prove to me you care enough about this country to have a say in the running of it.

In a follow-up interview however, Hillary pointed out that polling was definitely favorable if she became a widow without having a direct hand in Bill's murder.

"The sympathy votes was thought the roof", stated Senator Clinton. "We're now conducting polling to determine the best circumstances, polling wise, in which I become a widow".

Insiders reportthat the scenarios being researched are:

The Ron Brown plane crash scenario.
The Vice Foster suicide scenario
The slow painful death from disease scenario
The shot by a jealous husband why involved in an affair scenario

Well well well.

I think an elephants menstrual cycle runs every 2-3 months who wouldve thought I could hit you guys on target,what timing.

***********lets get down to business..naaaaaaaa

You would just rather call me names as opposed to dealing with factual issues,thats fine too.

Remember this my friends,there was never a sitting president more popular than George Bush 1,he was a decent man,a war hero and had just thrown back the Iraqi invaders of Kuwait.

Now remember what happened in Nov 92!!

Never underestimate the stupidity of the American voter,Strom Thurmond,Jesse Helms,Dick Army,Bullet Bobby Dornan etc....
Lester Maddox would be a fine,new age Republican.
Its nothing short of a shame that Newt Gingrich didnt have the stomach for the house seat,who says you cant embarrass Republicans.

The democrats dont have anybody to run against George 2,their field is weak and unorganized and Bush already has 100million in his war chest.

The dems have no chance,thats why none of the heavy hitters have come out to run,just like in 92 when al gore,cuomo,bradley didnt give it a try because they feared big Georges power.

The question most asked before a presidential election is Are you better off than you were 4 years ago.

Now lets forget about Iraq sailing into the potomac river to seize the whitehouse and lets forget about the saran wrap and gas masks for a while and let us consider what the former department of treausury head paul oneil said to the financial times of london or what warren buffet says about the tax cut for the richest 1% of america..

these arent liberals,they arent democrats,theyre business people who are taken aback by the ragtime display of greed that would make Martha Stewart blush..

Dont come back with Bill and Hillary did this or did that...This is what the Bush-Cheney ticket IS doing and those of us who arent multi-millionaires are taking it in the butt again..

When you take the worlds greatest economy and turn a huge surplus into what paul oneil says will be 14TRILLION dollar deficit then I for one want it spent on things other than the rape of errr the liberation of Iraq and the propping up of such tremendous allies like Pakistan,Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

If democracy comes to Iraq like it did to the 3 countries above then we will be proud right?

YA RIGHT
next stop?

Going for the 100th spot.

Going for the 100th spot.

Frenchman

Both the British parliament and the US Congress are to investigate possible abuse of intelligence information in the run-up to the war in Iraq.

So, what? I donít know about the British Parliment, but here in the US they hold Congressional Hearings everytime someone passes gas the wrong way.

Fallacy of Distraction

Is it more serious to lie about a blow [] or about Weapons of Mass destruction ?

False Analogy

We have this little problem with lying Under Oath, see, itës called perjury. Besides, Clinton was an embarrassment to the US.

Yet, you may be right that Sadaam never had any WMDs; perhaps he was just tired of being a brutal dictator, so he decided to play shell games with unmanned drones, prohibited missles, biolabs, etc. because he wanted to be overthrown instead of just stepping down. Maybe he really wanted to just live the peasant life.

I see you are still practicing your ability to cut and paste !

Got it. 100th

Curse you Bobby,
While I was typing you got my 100th spot. May the Geally Big Blue Butt of Misery sit on you.
Of course I could have miscounted, and you could really be 99th. In that case you're safe.

I demand a recount. Mike S. should have had 100th - he intended to have it when he hit the post button. Everyone must stop posting until I am satisfied that his intentions were reflected in the actual count.

All other posters have no mandate and therefore their posts are invalid. If the recount proves that Mike S. did not get 100th, I want the rules changed so he gets what he wants. And I want a congressional inquiry into Bobby's post and my own website so I can continue to whine about this for the next 4 years.

I believe that some of those lines between posts may not have the same number of dots in them, and therefore not qualify as a complete line, therefore not an actual seperation between posts. It's up to Chris to make sure all the lines are the same, and that someone didn't actually try to post twice in the same space. Count the dots for me will you Chris.

In case anyone asks
Geally - A word my son used when he was 18 months old. Means stinky, very smelly, rancid, yuckie, nasty, foul, filthy and so on. Gave the word to Theodor Geisel, but he chose not to use it in any of his books.
Either that or it was a typo.

I like it - Geally. That's like my youngest's boy's version of the school his older brother once attended (Infant of Prague). Jeff called it "Elephinit of Prague" (good boy - his favorite animal was the elephinit).

Sorry for the long post; this is for Chris:

Well well well

Three holes in the ground.

I think an elephants menstrual cycle runs every 2-3 months who wouldve thought I could hit you guys on target,what timing.

What do you bang elephants or something?

Now remember what happened in Nov 92!!Never underestimate the stupidity of the American voter,

You got that right

Strom Thurmond,Jesse Helms,Dick Army,Bullet Bobby Dornan etc....
Lester Maddox would be a fine,new age Republican.
Itnothing short of a shame that Newt Gingrich didnt have the stomach for the house seat,who says you cant embarrass Republicans.

At least Newt had the decency to admit he was wrong, like Packwood and resign, unlike Bubba.

The democrats dont have anybody to run against George 2,their field is weak and unorganized and Bush already has 100million in his war chest.
The dems have no chance,thats why none of the heavy hitters have come out to run,just like in 92 when al gore,cuomo,bradley didnt give it a try because they feared big Georges power.

And they had the most skilled liar in Bill Clinton

The question most asked before a presidential election is Are you better off than you were 4 years ago.

Iím okay, but alot of folks in my neighborhood lost loved ones on 9/11. In fact, one girl in the high school lost both parents. I sure wish someone had taken the high road and accepted Osama Bin Laden when he was offered up by Sudan.

Now lets forget about Iraq sailing into the potomac river to seize the whitehouse
Huh?
and lets forget about the saran wrap and gas masks for a while

You forget about them. If you think the war on terror is over, youíve been reading too much Maureen Dowd.

and let us consider what the former department of treausury head paul oneil said to the financial times of london or what warren buffet says about the tax cut for the richest 1% of america
these arent liberals,they arent democrats,.

Buffet is the epitome of a limousine liberal

liberal theyre business people who are taken aback by the ragtime display of greed that would make Martha Stewart blush..

thatís precisely what you guys said about Reagan. All that whining about deficits and the great great great grandchildren paying for them. Yet what happened? The investor class , those who pay 80% of what the government collects in tax revenue were able to invest in the technological breakthroughs occurring during the ë80s to create the surplus of the ë90s.

Dont come back with Bill and Hillary did this or did that.

What, nothing? Except take credit for an economy boosted by Bill Gates and the like?

.This is what the Bush-Cheney ticket IS doing and those of us who arent multi-millionaires are taking it in the butt again..

How is that, by not getting tax refunds because you donít pay income taxes

When you take the worlds greatest economy and turn a huge surplus

The government should never have a huge surplus! That means taxes are too high!

into what paul oneil says will be 14TRILLION dollar deficit

The word you are looking for is ìprojectedî. And it's not always a bad thing to carry a deficit, it is sometimes necessary when the economy is slow (Alan Greenspan). The only way a government can affect the economy is by putting more $ into the hands of taxpayers and keeping interest rates low for the investor class. Both are being done.

then I for one want it spent on things other than the rape of errr the liberation of Iraq

Chris, without security, you will never have a good economy.

and the propping up of such tremendous allies like Pakistan,Saudi Arabia and Egypt

These guys are key in the ME Peace process. Who are also beginning to ìget itî in the war on terror. I suppose kissing up to Yassir Arafat was a better idea. The fact is you guys just canít stand the fact that so far, Bush has had more succes in the past few months in what was to be your buddd Clintonís legacy.

If democracy comes to Iraq like it did to the 3 countries above then we will be proud right?

The action in Iraq is already having a ìripple effectî throughout the ME, and paved the way for the recent talks between the Israelis & Palestinians.

YA RIGHT
next stop?

for you, Chris, would be the grassroots effort to amend the constitution as proposed by your hero.

I have been reading this thread with a great deal of interest as some of the points raised are things that perhaps we as a nation need to investigate as a possible change to our Constitution. For example: I DO believe that military service should be a requirement for citizenship. Citizenship carries the responsibility of voting - regularly and at each election. Failure to vote in three consecutive elections with out an legitimate reason --each reason to be delineated once and then never again allowed to be changed by politicians -- results in the loss of the priviledge of voting and must be re-earned by additional service. No exceptions, if you want to vote, you must serve. This includes men and women. Do not get married and have kids until after service if you wish to vote. A Second kind of person then would exist under this Amendment and those people would be residents of the US but not allowed to vote. They could not vote on property taxes, income taxes, taxes of any sort, Presidents, Congressmen, Senators or any other elected official.

This would make Chris and those of his ilk trivial and non-important in the decisions that are made that affect our lives. What a comforting thought that is.

Regards to all.

Mike, sorry for coveting your spot. Thanks for clearing up the Geally thing, I thought maybe it was Portuguese or something.

I dunno Mike I count about 150 but I'm a registered independant and cant really be trusted as you know.

Banner mood today,I wouldve paid 500.00 to watch Martha Stewart get finger printed.I think shes a small fish in a big pond of scumbags but a 9 count 41 page indictment speaks for itself.

Martha,meet your new roomate Bertha,who murdered her husband with a glass of battery acid and ice picked her 3year old son thru the eyes.
Bertha meet Martha,now play nice ladies.

What,no perriwinkle colored comforters?
No Belgian Endive in the salads?
No honey suckle lotions in the shower?

This is truly a sweet day to be an American and Chris2 remember that Bill Clinton had to raise taxes to pay for Ronnie Reagans tax cuts of the 80s and the ensuing recession of the late 80s early 90s.

Ya Chris2,a huge deficit is always good to carry,does your mother still pay your bills for ya?

Warren Buffet a limo liberal?

The man IS capitolism at its finest and he made his billions on his own,unlike the entitled few who are occupying the white house.

Ask yourself if you feel safer today now that we pounded the sand people again?

Youre only fooling yourself.

You know, I bet no one was more surprised by what appeared in her book than than memory expert, Hillary Clinton.

I thought the sand people lived on Tatooine...

Chris,
Thanks for the recount even if it's wrong too.

It doesn't matter why we went in Iraq. The important thing is, it was the right thing to do and we did a grand job of it.

Semper Fi

The sand people were an oppressed aboriginal people. The Empire was keeping them them impoverished and trying to eliminate their culture.
We should apply to the Empire for humanitarian aid to assist the oppressed peoples of Tattooine.

Forty percent of the State of Georgia Budget is for welfare. Manufacturing is sliding out of this country due to the high cost of government not the low cost of labor. Bill gave a boatload of secrets to China and that is biting us RIGHT NOW. Bill got a lot of money for that information. That used to be called treason. Now, it is called diplomacy. I am about taxed out. I am about out of a job. I am about out of patience. I am sick of big government liberals taking my money and my livlihood because they know better what to do with it. I am glad I got civilized because before I would have left my office and kicked the heck out of somebody's dog.

Old Sailor:

My biggest problem with requiring military service to vote is that many people can't serve in the military (for example, neither my youngest boy nor I would be accepted because we have asthma). This is sort of stupid, because my son played mid-field in club soccer, and I used to be able to run 6 miles a day even with asthma, but those are the rules. I have often thought that there ought to be national service (but it could be in various professions) - if we had something like that and people chose to serve (and vote) or not (and not get to vote), that might work. But again, there are people who must care for younger sisters/brothers or elderly parents and therefore might not be able to serve.

It's an interesting idea, though.

Cassie howve you been?

My brother got his pilots liscense when he was 22 but couldnt fly in the military but could fly civilian aircraft because of his vision.

Eric
Bill Clinton may have allowed sensitive info to get to china,after all it was big george who gave the chinese most favored trading status and if you consider this treason what would you call Oliver North arming the Ayatollah with stinger missles while Iranian based terrorists left 250 of our Marines dead at Beirut airport?

Cassie
Whats so interesting about making military service a requirment to vote?
Of all people you should know better than to humor that ridiculous statement.
I would shoot my daughter in the leg before sending her off to bootcamp and for the record I served in the army and I still cant get the red clay of Georgia out of my teeth,never mind the dust of ft sill.

I think it's an interesting concept in the abstract, not so much military service but federal or national service. I have absolutely no idea how how it would work out in practice.

I think it would help solve some of the social problems we face: it could provide job training and a "way out" for disadvantaged young people, a medium for instilling some sort of national or common cultural identity (no - I'm not talking brainwashing), help us assimilate immigrants from other countries, allow some of the same type of projects that were accomplished by the WPA and CCC during the depression.

I'm not necessarily advocating that we do it - I just find it an interesting concept. Remember - I wouldn't be eligible, so I'm aware of the pitfalls!

Were you in Arty, or were you doing something else out at Ft. Sill?

Personally, while I think everyone should be able to vote in general elections, I think there should be an amendment that explicitly states only people who pay taxes can vote to raise/lower them. Considering the increasing number of nontaxpayers, it seems wrong to me to let them vote on whether someone else has to pay more money to support them through government programs. If a majority of taxpayers think a handout is needed, then so be it. Otherwise, no. Be certain, any rational person who does not pay taxes, but benefits from taxes being paid into the system, will ALWAYS vote to have them raised.

Victor:

You make a great point. Prescient words from Alexander Tyler, written over 230 years ago:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse (bounty, gifts, donations, generous giving, etc.) from the public treasury. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising them the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by dictatorship.

Democracies progress through this sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependence; from dependence back again to bondage."

Chris Also: Oh yeah, and the 'surplus' that W supposedly 'wrecked' was actually a projected surplus (meaning it didn't ever exist) that was caused by the government owing money to itself somehow (I don't get it, maybe someone here can explain this). It was something like that the government wrote a check to itself using the money in the Social Security fund and then counted the interest owed to itself as earnings, or somesuch nonsense.

And how are you supposed to cut taxes for the poor, when the bottom 99% or so pay 50% of the taxes? There aren't any taxes left to cut down there! Meanwhile, the top 1% pay the other half. Do you think that's fair? Then go join the Socialist Party, or move to France/Canada/Germany/Sweden.

Cassandra: Yep, that's where the Sand People are from. Actually, Chris was displaying his remarkable Liberal sensitivity in that comment. I'm guessing that 'Chris' is Sen. Byrd's screen name.

Sean: I call ICBM stage-separation technological info a lot more important then a couple of Stinger Missiles (without any info on how they work).

Victor: Actually, not having the pre-paying system (as an employee, your taxes are subtracted by your employer before you ever see your paycheck) would wake a lot of people up to how much of their income is being taken. I'm pretty sure that a lot more people would be for cutting taxes then.

If Universal service were adopted then people that were not suitable to serve in the military due to physical reasons could serve in a national work corp of the same length of service. The idea of only allowing tax payers to vote also has great merit. The problem that I am trying to get to is the one Cassandra pointed out in the words from Alexander Tyler; people that contribute nothing get to vote themselves a share of the pie. Just because they are alive does not warrant my supporting them.
Sean, I think that children ought to be able to make that decision for themselves, after a real education from real schools. I am proud my children have served. I was always fearful for them though, but they made their own decisions.

Cassandra (and others) -- The reason that the Roman Empire fell (other than general cultural decline) was the greater and greater benefits given to military veterans. Eventually generals got into a bidding war over what they would give the troops if they defeated the other general.
At the other end soldiers substituted love of benefits for love of Rome. Finally, when the Huns set the Goths et. al. in motion into the empire the legions weighed their duty against the material gain (or further promised gain). Duty lost.

We just came off a period of eight years of extraordinary citizenship. Institutionalizing extraordinary citizenship sounds more like "four legs good two legs better." Further I've have known plenty of modern American soldiers that don't have a clue.

Substituting a national service requirement will mean expanding leftist welfare programs like Americacorps, not a good idea in my book.

The entire idea of 'buying' the franchise through serving turns the whole idea of citizenship and service on its head. President Clinton began the idea of paid service. I was sorry that President Bush didn't kill it.
If such a program were ever started what is to stop it from growing from a 12 month service into 15 months or 18 or 24 or more. Like taxes government would soon see such programs as an opportunity to further enslave the populace. Heilein's idea has been tried several times and failed (e.g. Rome, Japan, China). No system is foolproof, but a Republic (the word is self-defining) is the most workable and most just system man has ever put in place.

Jericho:

re: Further I've have known plenty of modern American soldiers that don't have a clue.

***I agree on this one, but frankly was too chicken to say it since I have NOT served (other than ironing and starching cammies for the first 15 years of my husband's career and living with the long deployments). There are a few scummy people in the armed forces - some get weeded out through natural deselection or dishonorable discharges, some sleaze their way through a hitch or two, and some are even smart enough to squeak by for 20 or 30 years and get retirement. And some get promoted! When I saw the last General's list, I wondered if someone had put quaaludes in those little Tabasco sauce bottles in the MRE's...

I'm not sure it was as simple as military pay with the fall of the Roman Empire - part of the problem was that the empire itself was corrupt and had overexpanded. They had to have these huge armies to manage it, but then they didn't want to pay for what they wanted (sound familiar?) And, like today, affluence bred complacence, which bred apathy, which led to degeneracy and a decline in public and private morals.

That said, both my husband and I strongly believe in civilian control of the military - it is an important check/balance. When you put that much power into the hands of any entity, there must be accountability to some outside organization.

The possibility I see in national service is derived from the benefits many people have received from being in the military. It gets them out of their world, makes them live and work with all sorts of people, provides training, and also provides (for many) the only real discipline and moral/ethical education they have ever had. Is it perfect? No. Is is for everyone? Of course not - there are LOTS of negatives. But the nation also benefits from military service - they do perform actual work for the money they are paid.

I'm definitely not in favor of make-work programs or thinly disguised welfare programs, but I do think it's an idea worth discussing. It may or may not be practical in the real world, but nothing new ever happens unless someone dreams a bit. I do see a lot of the pitfalls you mentioned as well (for instance, can you see the PC movement dealing with teenagers building roads, "only the people have the shovels, etc") - but fortunately I'm not in charge so it's all just talk:)

Sorry - that was supposed to be

"only the (insert oppressed group here) people have the shovels, etc

Voter requirements.
You had to own property. This let women out of the loop unless their husbands deeded them ownership. It worked in Wyoming and Utah in the latter half of the 19th. century. However, as a condition of statehood, all territories that allowed women to vote had to take it away from them.

With all the taxes that are squeezed, uh, I mean collected for Economic Development, why is it that an alien from another country can have a leg up the ladder given him/her, but I, who am also considered a minority, am ineligible, and yet, I PAID those
taxes too!

As far as military service goes: It ought to be required if you go to college. The Budeswehr does that...they have a mandatory two year enlistment for young men seeking a university education.

And last I checked, we did live in a constitutional republic with the contradiction of majority rules.

All
Forcing people to serve their country (eliminating the all-volunteer military) would result in Democrats in the armed forces. We don't need that.

The comparisons to 1992 are inevitible but there's a few things that are missing.

1. Bush 41 said read my lips, no new taxes. He later broke this tax pledge.

2> Bush 41's handling of the gulf war did not sit well with most people. The fact that we did not take out Saddam Hussein in 91 stuck in the craw with most voters, which IMO explains his rapid plunge in popularity. We can discuss endlessly about why this is so, and it's probably not terribly fair to pin it on Bush, but I dont think most voters cared about the specific nuances regarding Bush's promises (or lack thereof). They felt that not taking out Hussein was a mistake, and this undermined his popularity.

3> Clinton and Gore ran a campaign promising a new Democratic party & agenda. They campaigned on specific issues. They did not endlessly, continuously and repeatedly attack Bush and the Bush administration. (They didn't have to ... everyone knew about the "no new taxes pledge" and that was really good enough for them) Bush 41, to contrast, ran a horrific campaign, with Pat Buchanan declaring a cultural war against ... well that seemed to change too. They ran on a family values campaign, only to watch that idea not resonate or solidify as other members of the Bush campaign & family diluted the message. Bush spent more time attacking Clinton and Gore as "Bozos" than giving people a reason to vote for him.

That was his undoing in 92. For Dubya, the parallels are minimal, if you look at things carefully. A casual, careless look does see parallels (military victory, high ratings, a weak economy) but the military victory is certainly more absolute now than Bush 41's was. There was no retreat on a pledge to not raise taxes. The ratings were not as high, but have held steadily for a lot longer- Bush 41 had 6-7 months of ratings over 70%... Bush 43 has had ratings over 60% ever since 9/11 and reached 58% for only a brief period. And the argument about the Bush tax plan boils down to whether you're a leftist or a rightist in terms of what you believe about it's affect on the rich/poor/country.

and

4. Talk radio and Fox News didn't exist (to the degree it does now) in 1992.

Ok that was a mouthful and a half. The election is still 17 months away, and a lot can happen. Clinton came out of nowhere to beat Bush, albeit assisted by Ross Perot. Bush 43 won't have to face someone like that- Perot would not generate that sort of popularity this time, and Nader threatens the Democrats far more than Bush of course. What would McCain do? Not a whole lot- I don't see McCain appealing to many would be Bush voters who are likely tired of his antics and would be turned off by his campaign. So who would be the "Perot" in the 2004 campaign? Because without a Perot, I don't see Bush losing in 2004.

To lil chris: If clinton was such a financial genius, (that he singlehandedly made the economy so good), tell me what happened when he was in Arkansas? He ruined the economy there, and left it in shambles! This was done WITH Dems in control of the State Congress!

As for the stupidity of voters, one need only look at the Democrats. Ted Kennedy, Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, Robert (KKK) Byrd, Barbara Boxer, Charles(It's alright to be a BLACK racist)Rangle, Greg(See above)Meeks, Tom Daschle, (to save typing)the rest of the Dem Presidential Candidates, this could go on forever, so I'll let you fill in the blank_______.

And finally, after ALL the stupid people listed above, and all the stupid, illegal, morally bankrupt things they have done, they still have people like YOU Chris, who are too stupid, or too much of a liberal/lemming/sheep, to know after the election, and they have won, they really don't care about anyone but theirselves! (I was going to say something else, but got my mind out of the Democratic gutter)!

Good luck in junior high chris!

Susan, you are on the right track. How does the liberal mind work? How does the mind process information and come to those liberal conclusions? Before Clinton the Chinese missiles couldn't be sure of hitting the entire United States. Now they can hit the block at which they are aimed. The liberal mind equates this with a few stinger missiles. Is it a chemical imbalance? Seriously. How are they able to overlook the lies of Clinton? I don't care what he did with a truckload of women. How do they accept Robert Byrd? A Grand Kleagle as a party leader?

Motor pool Miss Cassie and only in the reserves.

Best move I ever made as there was no way I couldve afforded B.C. without Uncle Sam,plus I bought my 1st property thru the Army credit union and got a steal paying only 7% on my 1st mortgage.

Homi excellant points comparing 92 to 04,its a different day and bush 43 should learn from 41s mistakes.

A FEW STINGER MISSILES?

a lt col in the usmc gave the ayatollah ruhollah khomeini stinger missiles and the the distinguished members of this panel can brush it off so easily?

as far as mandatory service in the federal govt or in the military?

Good morning comrades

Please read carefully. Nothing was said about "mandatory" service. I said we should do what Heinlein suggested in "Starship Troopers."
If you volunteer for Federal service, after (repeat AFTER) you serve your term, you can vote; you can run for office; you can get a job reserved like being a police officer.
No "draft."
Voluntary.
Need not be military.
Something on the lines of the Peace Corps, or AmeriCorps would also suffice.
Civil liberties (other than the franchise) would not be curtailed.
Simply being born in this country and managing to stay alive for 18 years should not give you a say in how it is run.
All I am advocating is that you earn the privilege of voting.

It might be a good way to avoid the "bread and circuses" contributed to the down-fall of the Roman Empire.

Sean,
Switzerland has mandatory military service. You gonna call them Communists?

Well, SRG beat me to the punch - I don't think anyone was suggesting mandatory service - just some type of national service as a prerequisite for voting in federal elections.

With all due respect people
Perhaps Im missing something in translation here but what I believe youre getting at is this.
Either you enlist in the service or ""volunteer"" to do some type of fed,state or local work or you lose your right to vote.
Is this essentially what you'd like to have done?

Now someone tell me in legal speak,is voting in this country a right or a privledge?

Random
the swiss have an army?
what are they armed....never mind..
i believe israel has mandatory military service for both sexes as well.

Yes, the Swiss have a very good Army. They guard the Pope. And when they have completed their military service they take their gun home. Everyones got one. Wouldn't that be a regular nightmare for Hil and Bill? This is my rifle, this is my gun, this is for fightin, this is for fun. Remember that?

As currently written, the right to vote is set down in the Constitution (Articles I and II, modified by the 12th, 14th, 19th, 24th, and 26th Amendments).
Article I refers to "choosing" representatives, and part of Article II says that the "several States" are to set the place and manner of the choosing. Article II also sets out the electoral college system (and is changed by the 12th Amendment).
Used to be white males 21 years and older, then just men 21 years and older, then for free (no poll tax), then men and women over 21, then over 18.
Four Amendments expanding the franchise.
Let's experiment by restricting it.

Question: Should we try social and political experimentation by changing the Constitution?
Answer: Ever heard of Prohibition?

Why not? This whole country is a social and political experment. It seems to be working adequately so far. Let's try a change and see if it makes things better. If it doesn't, we can always change it back (see reference to Prohibition, above).

How about this for equity's sake: from the ratifying of the Constitution until the 19th Amendmant, only men could vote in Federal elections. How about for the next 132 years, only women get to vote?

Questions? Comments?

Thats right eric
theyre in vatican city,never been myself but I have been to Sicily.
has the swiss army ever used a weapon in combat other than a bar of gold?

SRG:

re: How about this for equity's sake: from the ratifying of the Constitution until the 19th Amendmant, only men could vote in Federal elections. How about for the next 132 years, only women get to vote?

Well, that would put the lie to the feminists who contend the world would be in better shape if women ran it. Anyone who has sat on a club board or committee composed solely of women knows how ridiculous this is. I'm female, and even I can't stand all the talk about feelings - if you want to stick to the agenda or (God forbid) the charter, rules, or parliamentary procedure, you are obviously cold-hearted and a big meanie to boot.

Hey - this reminds me of something - it's right on the tip of my tongue...maybe it'll come to me later.

I take it then that voting is an unalienable right as an american citizen.

can you imagine the crap fight the aclu would put up?
i never know what to expect from this group.
i witnessed this when I lived in Boston.
the aryan nation or one of those anti semitic-anti black groups wanted to march thru south boston in solidarity with the anti-busing protesters and were blocked by i believe it was judge arthur garrity.
they appeal...
then the aclu sends out someone like Moshe Ginsburg from ny to represent the Nazi's?
can you imagine a jew representing the nazis right to protest?
what that is called AMONGST OTHER THINGS is conviction of your beliefs and although Im sure the guy from the aclu hated the nazis,he got them the right to march.
of course the pink skinned freckled face tribe the nazis wanted to march in solidarity with ended up turning on them and about 50nazis ended up beaten,robbed and nearly stoned to death..

as far as given woman the sole right to vote?
random guy
woman voted for clinton like 75-25 and although the margin for gore wasnt that high it was substantial.
can you imagine the lifetime channel on all day,every day in your life??

Smeagol thinks only Hobbitses should be allowed to vote...yes, my Precious...only nice Hobbitses. No nassty Ringwraithses.

Gollum promises a pot full of fisshes for every Hobbit when he is elected. And mushrooms...lots of tassty mushroomses.

The ACLUs mandate is to protect the Bill of Rights. If the Constitution was amended to limit franchise to certain people, then they would have no choice but to support it.
Talk about a self-induced split personality! (although a Jewish man defending neo-Nazis does rank right up there. It gets about an 8.3 on my Wierd-Sh*t-o-Meter.)

I guess my view of the ideal Woman Voter is based around my mother. (Yes, I am a "Momma's Boy." You want to make something of it?) She can be incredibly pragmatic and hard-nosed when it comes to the important stuff, although she does temper it with sympathy. And she has loads of common sense (appearently it is not genetic).

I just think that there should be some way to limit universal franchise to those who actually give rat's a** and think about what is at stake.

I used to have a higher opinion of women in general, but that has unfortunately been tempered by harsh reality. I'm with SRG - the advantage of the female viewpoint SHOULD be practicality laced with compassion.

I think something weird happens when women congregate - maybe the same thing happens when men are in a group, but things seem to gravitate toward some lowest common denominator. I think this is because its so important to many women to reach consensus, so individuality can get trampled. I don't know - maybe I'm all screwed up. I've just seen it happen too often and it never ceases to amaze me.

It's an easy call with men: Testosterone poisoning.
Maybe estrogen and progestrone do the same thing.

Having poured alcohol from maine to mauna kea I can tell you this.
Woman dont like to congregate amongst themselves for whatever reason.
Ive worked fern bars,buckets of blood,nice resteraunts and beach bungaloes and only occasionally do you see woman accompanied by other woman,unless of course they eat off of the same plate if you know what I mean..
Meanwhile I cant tell you how many sunrises Ive seen trying to solve the worlds problems with the likes of sully,fitzy,o'b and o'c.
my sainted bride doesnt allow me to play with the irish kids anymore.

all have a blessed weekend and if you like the horses watch the belmont tommorow afternoon as we should have our 1st triple crown winner annointed in 24years

Funnycide

Go, Funnycide, go.
I still remember seeing Affirmed win it.
And Secretariat (still track record times).

The point of military service to earn the right to vote in Starship Troopers was to make sure that the people voting put the national interest above their own. For this to be true, the Federal Service must not be worth going into for a selfish individual. So it would have to be something poorly paid or life-threatening.

We could end up with a country run by people who want to kill, KILL, Ki-iilllll!

FMM

Question: Whats the longest running thread ever?

Starship Troopers is no basis for government. It assumes an external threat real and imminent. The biggest threat I believe is that noted by Cassandra above. We are moving into an era of moral decay seasoned with apathy to which we are likely to degenerate into anarchy.
Sadly, I'm fairly sure its sociologially unavoidable. The book of Judges chronicles the pattern of savior, fidelity, decay, chaos, repentance, savior throughout it length.
The only thing thats different about today's society is the shear staggering numbers of people. I wonder if regions and cultures won't cycle through decay and redemption as "America" as a whole keeps on chugging.

Who knows.

One other thing too; That exclusively giving women the right to vote, feelings can be so all important that whatever feels right is the thing to do.

Well, in my own little bailiwick, that works for an owie or something that is tailored to the individual.
But conflict? Someone is gonna get their feelings hurt, and leveling the playing field by depriving someone else of their rights is NOT what I was taught about the Constitution.

The playing field was life, and the Inalienable rights were to be protected by government, not defined by government, which is what leveled it.

Therefore, if we get some Maggie Thatchers and Queen Elizabeth the Firsts in there, not to mention a few Golda Meirs, we would stand a chance. And of course, Cassandra.

Hillary Thought Killing Bill Might Hurt Her Senate Bid. ---- REALLY ???

The book launching is a political GIMMICK.

She wants to be the topic of discussion to be in the limelight.
She is playing the aggrieved party to get the sympathy of the voters for her 2004 Senate re-election bid or for her White House Presidential bid.

The gimmick seems to be working.

BUT she is too LIBERAL for and will weaken the United States.

For decades, Nostradamus's Quatrain about, 'Hisler', one of the great 'Anti-CHRIST's was thought to be Adolf Hitler. Turns out, it is really about, 'Hillary'! Who'd a thunk it?

Armstrongcui: You are correct, and she even got Barbara Wah-wah, to play 'straight-man' for her. Two liberal peas in a pod.

OH HILLARY KILLING BILL
LIKE SHE DID TO VINCE FOSTER ...NAH TO EASY

GEE FRENCHMAN YOUR STILL AN *$$ H*LE

I AM FRIGGIN BACK

Everyone notice that the Democrats are reduced to old playbooks and conspiracy theories? No doubt as a result of their hippie, drugged-out parents rattling the gene pool.

Hillary could have gotten a post-dated pardon from Bill while he was snorting cocaine, then filled in the date after she killed him. All she had to do was promise big bucks to Al Gore's presidential campaign.

Bill did snort cocaine, but he didn't inhale!

"I experimented with marijauna... ...and I didn't like it, and didn't inhale, and never tried it again." - Bill Clinton

Anyone who believes that HAS been inhaling.

The actress who played, 'Large Marge' in 'PeeWee's Big Adventure', was passed over, to play Hillary. Her agent stated, " I thought the part in the semi, when she was describing the accident to PeeWee, and her eyes 'bugged out', would have been, just the ticket, for the scene when Bill admits his infidelity to Hillary! It seemed though that Hill's 'people', thought it 'beneath her', that the public may think she, (Hillary), might actually sink the level of driving a truck, or actually talking to a pervert like PeeWee!"

Susan, You brought back some truly happy memories...I laughed until I cried at that scene, and now that you mention it, She would be perfect for Hitlery Rotten Cartoon.