I think the IAEA are the real danger

What if this material falls into the hands of Jimmy Carter?!

Your hearing deteriorates pretty rapidly when firing automatic weapons (or playing drums in a bagpipe band) so I propse that the journalists also use an easily recognizable visual device as well as the audible one.
The usual "PRESS" or "CNN" may be difficult for some of the combatants to recognize as they are likely unfamiliar with the Roman alphabet. I propose that they adopt a universal symbol: a series of red and white concentric circles on the front and back of their "bulletproof" vests.
The bright colors and easily identified symbol will make journalist spotting and targetting..umm...target avoidance, yeah that's what I meant...journalist spotting and target avoidance much simpler.
With these new recognition systems, the reporters could walk right in between the two sets of combatants with complete confidence that both sides will not shoot them and they could get the dramatic footage that sells lots of advertising...I mean, keeps the viewers informed about important events.
The next step would be loudspeakers and shot-gun microphones so that these vultures...ah...journalists can conduct "during the firefight interviews with combatants.
For example:
Reporter- Hey you with the AK-47! Yes you with the head scarf and Chicago Bulls t-shirt! Anything you'd like to say to your family right now?
Abdul: I'd like to shout out to all my homies! "Hi" to my Mom and Dad, my brother Achmed, Uncle Ali, and all the cousins. A big "Wassup!" to Mohammed down at the club, all the ladies AAARRRRGGGH!! I'm HIT!!! Allah help meeeee!!!!!"
Reporter: And now, a word from our sponsor...

D'oh!
Posted it on the wrong story!
Please read the above in the context of the "bell collar" story, and forgive me for being a moron.

random, actually it is funnier here! LOL

If Saddam's dangerousness was a pretext, a way to win popular support by spreading fear, those insistent charges of WMD possession start looking rather like the manufactured Gulf of Tonkin incident.

Is it OK for the government to lie as long as things go well?

Do you guys smell something?

It is possible that the intelligence estimates were wrong. It is possible that the WMDs won't be found.
It is also possible that a repressive, oppressive, murderous dictator was removed from power.
Do you care nothing about the tens of thousands of innocent Shi'ites and Kurds who were killed by this madman and his underlings? Do you care nothing about the thousands who starved and suffered while this ego-maniac thug built himself a dozen lavish palaces?
If the government in Paris ordered the nerve gas attack of the Lorraine (after all they are not really French, they're German), would you expect the world to stand by and do nothing because it was "an internal matter."?
As for rebuilding, getting the utilities back on, the water flowing, the schools and hospitals open; give it a little time, the fighting hasn't finished yet.

As for the Gulf of Tonkin Incident; if the French government or military hadn't screwed up so badly, the US wouldn't have been there. It is your country's fault we were involved at all.

You partisan dupes. America is WHOLY responsible for the problems of the twentieth century. We are the greatest, richest, and most intellegent and powerful nation. Yet the world is a darn mess. Who invented (and continues to invent) WMDs? Who was the LAST nation to still have slaves? Who is the primary benificiary and supporter of the exploitation of cheap foregin labor? (whuch creates resentment and violent hatred). If we are SO SMART how come we can't get anything done in this world with out big nasty weapons backing it up? We'll be lucky to have 4 more years of anything at the rate we're going.

uhhhh....this is the 21st century...

Actually, Brazil was the last country to hold slaves.
Read some history.

Hey-zeus

What planet do you live on??? The United States of America is ìis WHOLY responsible for the problems of the twentieth centuryî, wow!!!! WE have been quite busy!!! If I recall my history correctly- we did not initiate either of the World Wars, we have not had any genocidal maniacs on the ëpayrollí, we have not destroyed rainforests (for the tree- huggers), etc.---- we are the most benevolent country in the world- hop many other countries liberate millions of people and then rebuild (oops, I forgot, you donít know history and the Treaty of Versailles- well basically the French ëstuckí it to the Germans and that was one of the causes of the rise of Adolph Hitler- who was an American citizen I guessÖ..)

Better check your current history too, that is still slavery going on!!! As far as ìWho is the primary benificiary (beneficiary) and supporter of the exploitation of cheap foregin (foreign) laborîóbetter check all of your ëdesigner clothesí, sneakers, and your starbucksÖ.you are- as an American consumer. Start making your own clothes from the cotton you grow in your backyard if you are soooooo distraught over the situation!!! Exploiting is done by the owners of the foreign companies- most of the workers make more than the ëtypicalí worker in their country- so they work long hours in ësweatshopí conditions because if they donít- someone else will do their job and make the money!! Life isnít fair- didnít say it was ërightí- but look at workers in the US at the turn of the 2oth century!! Ever read The Jungle by Upton Sinclair???? Not everyone can be a consultant and have a ëcushyí job!!!

I believe Mustard gas was used during WWI- I donít know who invented itóbut you could say gunpowder is a WMD compared to arrows!!! How about TNT and the Nobel Prize!!! There are bad people in the world- wishing that they arenít there does not make them go away!!! So deterrents do work for most- not all!! People can be manipulated- look at a homicide bomber--- how is the US responsible for that individual making (or being manipulated into making) that choice?

Hey-zeus also said ìWe are the greatest- that is terribly egotistical, richest- as in most money??? Money doesnít buy happiness- just lots of happy meals for our fat kids, and most intellegent - except for the ability to spell intelligently and powerful nation- because we invest in keeping our national defense/offense strong!!. ì

And the final thoughts of j-lib, ìIf we are SO SMART how come we can't get anything done in this world with out (without) big nasty weapons backing it up?îódiplomacy only works when others are willing to be reasonable- when they are more concerned about their financial loses rather than the freedom of millions of people (Kofi, are you listening??), if the US is such a terrible place- why do people risk their lives to come here??? I donít recall armed guards at the borders trying to keep people in??? If we canít do anything right- why do countries always want us to help them out??? Do we force the world to use our products at gunpoint? Or is it their freewill?? ìWe'll be lucky to have 4 more years of anything at the rate we're going.î Better check your calendar- it is 2003- the next presidential election is in 2004- so if you think there is a democrat out there who can do a better job- get him or her elected!!! I am personally doing very well- thanksóthe mutual funds and retirement are a little down- but I guess we have to blame 9/11 on ourselves (rather than Clinton who set us up) and corporate greed on our society in general!!!

Keep on thinking your liberal thoughts- itís all my fault- itís all my fault- itís all my fault- itís all my fault- itís all my fault- we will let all of the criminals out of prison because they are not responsible for their crimes- obviously they werenít given everything they wanted and feel ëcheatedí- so someone else is responsible for their behaviorÖ we wouldnít want personal accountability- then there would be no reason to raise taxes to give money to help people who canít help themselves- because money(not their own- yours and mine) and bureaucracy heals ALL problems- ask any democrat!!!

Conservative and loving life!!

liberal wrote:

"America is WHOLY responsible for the problems of the twentieth century. We are the greatest, richest, and most intellegent and powerful nation. Yet the world is a darn mess. "

Yeah, the world was such a utopia before we came around. No one in Europe ever fought each other before the U.S. came around and Muslims and Christians never fought before the U.S. either.

"Who invented (and continues to invent) WMDs?"

Well a guy named Nobel, of "peace prize" fame, invented TNT, Mustard Gas(chemical weapon) was used in WWI before we were involved, English, Spanish, Portugese, Italian and French explorers may have used smallpox(biological weapon) infested items against Native Americans, in the middle ages rotting animal and human corpses were catapulted into besieged cities that had no way to dispose of them and water supplies have been poisoned for centuries in warfare. If you're asking about nukes, that one was us, thank goodness.

"Who was the LAST nation to still have slaves?"

On last report, Sudan still has slavery. Or do Africans and Arabs holding other Africans as slaves not count in your book?

"Who is the primary benificiary and supporter of the exploitation of cheap foregin labor? (whuch creates resentment and violent hatred). "

This is the fallback position of old Marxists. Since the workers in capitalist countries have not continued to get poorer, but have thrived, they will not revolt and create the workers paradise. Since this contradicts Marx's thesis, to still believe it, some have shifted to the workers in the third world as the ones who are being oppressed and they will revolt to create the paradise. Of course it couldn't be the violent, corrupt dictators in the third world keeping their own people down, no it must be the capitalist pigs(note that in this scenario even the working classes in capitalist countries are part of the oppressive class since they benefit from the "cheap" foreign labor and side with the evil capitalists). Of course, in communist countries you don't have to worry about cheap foreign labor, you have all the free domestic labor you could want(though not much incentive without force for them to work very hard).

I am WHOLY speechless... hrlordi: After that Olympian rant, what remains to be said?

- Another partisan dupe

WHOA...

If the government in Paris ordered the nerve gas attack of the Lorraine (after all they are not really French, they're German), would you expect the world to stand by and do nothing because it was "an internal matter."?

Well actually I think the world would stand by and do nothing, maybe giggle a bit as the UN is approached to sort it out:-)

Hey!
Don't forget nerve gas! Zyclon-B was developed in the 1930s during research for insecticides.
But since J-Lib probably considers Jews to be fat-cat bankers and oppressors of the poor, as well as trying to commit genocide on the Palestinians, then killing them is a "just cause."

Yo, Libbie!
Were you out in the street protesting our involvement in Kosovo? If not, then you are a hypocrit.
Show your true colors. Especially that big yellow stripe down your back.

Check out the poetic stylings of J-Lib under the Matrix story:

Further from God we go, where it stops nobody knows! 4 more years? 4 more years? Blood will flow, boddies will burn- they did it first now its our turn. We are not God, but rather little boys, who when we create, we first must destroy. America is Power and God is Love. We are hawks and HE is a dove. As it is writen, America will fall, because witout weapons, our Justice is nothing at all.

J-lib was last seen running from the location with his tail between his legs, bruised, bloodied and rightfully scolded!

What more can be said except "hrdlordi, your my heeerrooo!" (think Ferris Buellers Day Off when you say it).

I totally forgot about the Evil Americans forcing the Iraqis to loot, pillage and destroy their own cities and antiquities!!! But America is responsible for the destruction of 4000 years of 'civil'ization.....

I can't wait to see which poor, helpless, innocent people-group or country we obliterate next!!! Especially when I can watch it on TV while eating some fast food(that was slaughtered without 'humane'* practices) to boot!!!

God bless the USA!

Still conservative and loving life even better (if it were legal!)

*they are animals and not humans- don't get me started on abortion!!!

Hey Guys,

Do you think you could go a little bit easier on the odd liberal that sticks its head over the parapet. Its fun to read their delusional ravings but they get scared off before they get into their stride. Where's Frenchie anyway, he was pretty good.

Quote from Mr William Hague (ex) leader of the Britsh Conservative Party. " It is proposed that the new European Defence Force will be made up of units from the French, Belgian & Luxembourg armed forces. OOOOOh Scary".

Jonah,
You have a point, but it is open season on liberals and their bs. If they say it we have to refute it!
BTW, how can you take him seriously when he still lives in the 20th century (probably reminicing the good old clinton days... and cannot accept that fact that a republican is in office and kick'n A!)

hey Justin

You are correct of course but you could string them along a little bit before dropping the hammer on them. hrlordis rant was brilliant. Personally I prefer to let dimbos get into full on preaching mode then cut their legs off at the knees with a machete. But then I'm English and we like to smile sweetly whilst delivering the coup de grace. You all carry on, its refreshing to see lefty bs dealt with directly.

cheers jonah:)

Jonah- you are correct!! The impersonal nature of electronic communication allows one to obliterate another individual's thoughts (which my be moronic, infantile, unrealistic, improbable, sophomoric, pathetic, completely and utterly contrary to human nature, and without any regard for history), but they are personal and I didn't mean to attack hey-zeus liberal as a fellow human being- I was trying to enlighten him with the TRUTH!!!

'love the individual, not their liberalism....' or something like that!!!

The TRUTH is out there- not that I am a source!!!

Hey-zeus liberal- please post again so we can help to guide you toward a more realistic world view!!!

I am now enlightened. We must love and accept the liberal so we can teach them that there is a better path out there and,,, if they don't accept it cut them off at the knees.

God love you all. Nope, still liberal. And I am not suppised, but disgusted with the references to personal violence against me and anyone who thinks like me. You would make great Islamists. Oh yes, And stop it with the commie-liberal thing.

Unlike commies, marxists, and their dicatators, no idea in my (and most libs) book is worth a snit if you need force to make it a reality. And, absolutley, positivly, all are free to believe or disbelieve, speak or shut-up. So shut-up. Just kidding.

I love my country and the values of the constitution (except the references to slavery). God bless the WORLD you greedy, selfish, heartless, egotistical, deluded fools. Warfare will not bring the ultimate Peace, only the ultimate WAR! God save us all. (Even the guy who thinks he could break my kees. Just try it ;)

Missing Iraqi Nuclear Material That Actually Helps the Economy...

Mohammed sat and watched the glow,
It scorched his body, head to toe,
His dromedary grew an extra hump,
That hung down past its great big rump,
The French, say that this war was bad,
But for Mohammed itís the best he's ever had,
For paying customers, came from far and wide,
To get his [two seat],limousine camel rideÖ.

hrdlordi!!!!-----

as for your earlier BRILLIANT....TRUTH filled RANT----" that dawg can hunt!"....(and me being a cat....I don't say that often or loud!)

I think Rush, Sean Hannity and "Dr. No Spin O' Reilly" are each feverishly trying to draw up a contract to have you team up with them!.....unless you ARE on of "them"!---?

You were like the "ace" on the game with the hammer and those weasles popping their heads up.....you popped every one of "Hey Zuess's" spun out of control and out of touch accusations right smack on the head!.

Sheesh...last I knew the slavery was alive and hideously well in Sudan.....AND.....its darned if you do and darned if you don't. USA shouldn't be the "big brother" to the world...but on the other hand according to J-Lib's rant we're to blame for the problems of the world!....HUH?....
"mommy---can we give J- Lib some of grandpa's prozac??"

Jesus Liberal writes: God bless the WORLD you greedy, selfish, heartless, egotistical, deluded fools.

Interesting contrast of terms.

By the way even discounting the 21st century slavery of Arabs and Africans already pointed out Brazil ended slavery in the 1880's. America, Britain and yes even France are unique not for their slavery, but for their 1st ever in the history of man anti-slavery efforts.

Further, remember it was under American and British pressure that Arab slavery was suppressed though not completely elimintated after World War Two.

NOTICE TO THE HONORABLE SCRAPPLE REGULARS

The J liberal so claims the name of Jesus, note how liberal claims the teachings of jesus and liberal claims he is a good Christian with " moral values " so above and beyond everyone unto himself

posted by jesus liberal

"I love my country and the values of the constitution (except the references to slavery). God bless the WORLD"

And then NOTICE how liberal spews true evil in the same paragraph a diametrically inverse statement,contradictory exposure of another failed phony ploy disgarded
by all as useless trash underfoot a pathetic attempt to cover a transparent platform with out merit

jesus liberal posted

" you greedy, selfish, heartless, egotistical, deluded fools."

hey liberal we have seen your kind before and we so called him "THE FRENCHMAN "

Aw JP, common!

The LAST thing a good christian is too think is that he or she is better than anyone- "Not by works. . " But You think you're better than me or the french people as a whole? Are your smarter and more "connected with reality?" Would you like to see a bunch of liberal protesters (mothers, fathers, brothers, siters, AMERICANS) all shot up for their trechery? Hmmm.

Hey, the last line was just a dig at conservatisim- I mean come on, it's not like you guys are known for CARING about starving, under educated, sick children (especially those of color) or their abandoned mothers (Definition of Faith in the Epistle of James). You care more about "vehicular choice" and 300 dollar rebate checks. What conservative has really spoke out with a genuine compassion or interest in the fates of the poorer Americans? Not that most "Democrats" actually did anythong for them, they just say they care. I am not a democrap or Clinton lover- in fact I despise them more than Bush for their dishonesty. At least I know the kind of monster he and Cheney are cause they rub it in my face. Don't pigeon hole me and I won't you, K? Lots a love.

WMD

(What Mass Destruction?)

yaksun

J-Lib:

I'm having a bit of trouble reconciling several of your remarks with each other (and with reality)

1. no idea in my (and most libs) book is worth a snit if you need force to make it a reality.

***So, the idea of freedom is not worth fighting for?

This is a passage from a speech made by Rev. Martin Luther King:

In a very profound passage which has been often misunderstood, Jesus utters this: He says, "Think not that I am come to bring peace. I come not to bring peace but a sword." Certainly, He is not saying that he comes not to bring peace in the higher sense. What He is saying is: "I come not to bring this peace of escapism, this peace that fails to confront the real issues of life, the peace that makes for stagnant complacency." Whenever I come, a conflict is precipitated between the old and the new, between justice and injustice, between the forces of light and the forces of darkness. I come to declare war over injustice. I come to declare war on evil. Peace is not merely the absence of some negative force--war, tension, confusion, but it is the presence of some positive force--justice, goodwill, the power of the kingdom of God.

2. And, absolutley, positivly, all are free to believe or disbelieve, speak or shut-up. So shut-up. Just kidding.

***OK - I believe I should have the right to kill children - in fact, your daughter. I don't believe in laws - and according to you, I am free to disbelieve in them. And you can't stop me, because no idea, even the idea that your daughter has a right to live, is worth a snit if you have to use force to make it a reality.

3.God bless the WORLD you greedy, selfish, heartless, egotistical, deluded fools.

***My goodness, I thought you just accused conservatives of indulging in personal attacks instead of discussing the issues?

J lIb
cutting off at the knees is an expression meaning cutting down your argument to show that is has no merit, it's a play on words.
You claim that we are disconnected with the poor, the uneducated etc, but I feel that liberals use them to gain what they want: money, fame and power. How many billions have been wasted on welfare and other inept social programs? They concept is not a bad one, help those who are going through tough times, but they need to be encouraged to get off it and be self-supporting. There are many examples of 2nd, 3rd etc generations of welfare families and that isn't right. These kids are tought to bleed the system and know no other way.
We also need to make education more affordable. I'm still paying off college debt and that is money I could be using to support my family and THE ECONOMY!
Have you seen the pork spending on the latest budget? It is shamefull! We could afford more than a 720 billion dollar tax cut if we cut out all that stupid crap and gave it back to the people.

BTW, I'm a devout christian, but I don't put myself on a higher plane than others. I take these morals to heart and try and live a good life. I feel that others in the world should have the same opportunity, whether black/white, christian/muslim/athiest etc. Nobody should have to live under a murderous tyrant NO MATTER WHERE. I say first we start with those who are a threat to national securtity/terrorism and then help those in Africa (or wherever) gain there freedom. Is that an altruistic approach?

Please explain how bush/cheney are monsters and do you have any comments on hrdlordi's post? He made some good points but you are only responding to what others have said!

well said cassandra. J-lib preaches that we should tolerate others, not use force for any reason, and if we don't agree than we are evil. Using God's name to support his position but without any support from God's Word. Based on the Word, God did not avoid violence either. The flood that killed all the planet except Noah and the creatures on he Arc? The signs 9 death , plague, famine) to the Pharoah when Moses told him to release the jews from slavery? The crucifiction of Christ? All violent acts for the purpose of a better world. While peace would be a wonderful thing, as Rodney King said - why can't we all just get along? - reality will tell us that there always, ALWAYS, will be conflict. There is conflict between siblings fighting over a toy (he won't stop touching me) to conflcit between races, ethnic groups, tribes, religious groups. One reason is that not everyone believes in Jesus Christ, and there are those who believe Christians are evil, just as those who believe muslims, jews, satanists,buddhists are evil.

God gave man the ability to think, emotions, and the ability to make things from the world. Man found it necessary to make weapons to hunt food. Man decided to use these weapons for evil, to attack othe men for their food, rather than hunt their own. Man found it necessary to use these tools for hunting as tools for defense. As long as there are people on this planet who would rather take from others rather than make their own way, there will be war and conflict. Sounds alot like liberals- people who want to take from those who worked for it because they don't want to work for it themselves.

Kill all liberals and we will have peace. Now I sound like J-lib.

God bless the world, Casserole? Allah bless the world, b/c the way y'all are running it, they're gonna need it. The bigotry disguised as patriotic fervor makes me wanna puke all over your pretty little flag. MLK would take that flag and peacefully shove it up your assinine, flared nostril, if he heard you proclaiming peace ,then turning around and harboring hate in your hearts. Pardon me while I go take my hypertension meds.

Iraqi WMD un/dis/re covered - 0
Osama Bin Laden caught - 0
Mullah Omar caught - 0
Hussein(s) caught - 0
Arms left on Ali Abbas - 0

Threats to Israel removed - 1
"Tailhook" photo ops - 1

yaksun

J-Lib said: "Hey, the last line was just a dig at conservatisim- I mean come on, it's not like you guys are known for CARING about starving, under educated, sick children (especially those of color) or their abandoned mothers

**********ORRRR....could it be that plenty of "us"
Conserv's(Christians included)--do those things with no need of a red carpet or a LOUDSPEAKER announcement of those acts and deeds???....(I may remind you---- that is UNLIKE the behavior of the libs that nearly drown themselves in their glurge of self glorification for doing what we as people ( Christians included) should just be DOING by BEING!

just ONE "corporate" example:
I'm well informed of how churches AND the city right here in Co. Springs work together to help people/families get back on their feet with needs met while they're learning also to develop skills and how to function in the world---how to find jobs, budget, etc etc etc.... Tools and skills they lacked before. But we don't need USA TODAY headlines to validate those efforts...and the people who are helped SURE AS HECK don't need the libs to be their "life support system" for them. ******in agreement with what Justin said: "those people" need to be taught how to "live,think, breathe" on their OWN....THAT"S one way to give "worth" to a human. IT DOESN"T happen by you making them totally dependent upon you ( ala: lib style!)

J-Lib---even your rantings really do
sound like they came from someone elses mind and you're simply parroting. DARE to have blinders removed....see truth...and THEN speak from your own heart!!

You sadly appear to be yet another victim of leftist/SPUN out of control media endoctrination. You would be considered a "success story" for them.------I WISH YOU TRUTH!

...Somehow I believe there may be actually be a shred of willingness for you to abandon what you now believe to be "so" if you could find rock solid evidence to the contrary. That shouldn't be hard--keep your eyes and heart open. (Apples are good for us....but once injected with even the slightest amount of poison...IT becomes poison.)

GOD BLESS YOU. ( He DOES reward those who diligently seek Him)

Iraqi people freed from a brutal dictator: 24,001,816
Post War Figures
Dissidents dropped in plastic shredder: 0
Children imprisoned to control their parents: 0
Wives raped to punish husbands: 0
Daughters raped to punish family: 0
Kurdish villages nerve gassed: 0

(population figure source, 2003 World Almanac)

SRG,
Good response.

LF Cat,
Like the good book said "when you do something good don't proclaim it on the rooftops as the sadduccees and Pharacees (sp)". Do something good, but don't go bragging about it. The libs are always "we supported this so we are on your side" and in reality they are thinking "now let's tax them some more so we can have more funds for our stupid social programs that don't work and only make the poor poorer!"

Rant over

Some random guy: great post!

Izriri:

Casserole??? Good one... but I didn't say "GOD bless the world" - J-Lib did.

Anyway, isn't Allah God, too? God has many faces - until I die (hopefully not via the dreaded flag-in-nostril), I hope I will never presume to speak for God.

WHERE THE HECK DID THIS COME FROM? The bigotry disguised as patriotic fervor makes me wanna puke all over your pretty little flag. MLK would take that flag and peacefully shove it up your assinine, flared nostril, if he heard you proclaiming peace ,then turning around and harboring hate in your hearts.

Point of curiosity: just how does one peacefully shove a flag up someone's nostril?

What bigotry?

Given the tenor of your diatribe, it sounds like you may have a few issues with harboring hate yourself. I can't see the problem with hating the use of torture, rape, and underground prisons to stay in power myself, but maybe that's just me. And if I were a bigot, wouldn't I only hate them if they were used on Americans?

PS: since you don't know my race, religion, or ethnicity, you might want to watch the bigotry accusations

Oh, my bad, SRG. I thought US fought the "battle of iraq" to rid the world of an exporter of terrorism and big, mean WMD - not unlike the ones in North Korea and Iran, and Israel for that matter. Or did you forget those WERE the stated reasons? Of course, even using the criteria you espouse (ridding the world of evil dictatorships and repressive regimes), the work has just begun. What's holding you back?

WMD (What Mass Destruction).

US - making the world safe for... Israel since 2003.

yaksun

yakun-0
j liberal-0
frenchman-0
osama bin laden-0
saddam hussein-0
qusai hussein-0
udday hussein-0
tim robbins-0
susan surrandon-0
mike ferral-0
martin sheen-0
sean penn-0
you are all the same to me

hey yusun
you worthless peice of________

ever hear of this place

Halabja, Northern Iraq March 16, 1988.

ask the 100,000 or so dead Kurds about what WMD

and then meet me on Fulton street in New York and bring your friend J Liberal there a pit I want to show the both of you up close and personal like

Yaksun,
ahh, how does Israel export terrorism? I'm claiming ignorance, please explain.

BTW, the evidence of ties with terror groups are there, but liberals only see what the want to (just like Bush on the Carrier being a photo op, it was to support the troops and was a good political move, brillian!). We are finding more and more evidence of WMD every day (mobile labs etc) so be patient.

Well, here's the ScrappleHead gang making fools of themselves again. Someone like Jesus Liberals comes along with truth and intelligence and a loving attitude and you treat him like, like, well gosh like the Romans treated Jesus! You have nailed him to the cross and should be ashamed. Everything he said was right on and I understand him and agree 100% except for the Jesus part. Any smart person knows there is no Jesus. Except some of his teachings are pretty good, just like Jesus Liberals.

Remember to vote Bill Terwilliger '04.
Let's Roll!

Also Yaksun and Jesus Liberal I know just how you feel. I am poorly treated here too.

Hey, jp, if you want to send American troops to die for the sake of Iraqi Kurds, why don't you have the guts to say so, instead of snowballing the public? Conversely, if you want to send American troops to die in Iraq and elsewhere under the pretext of eliminating regime heads who sponsor terrorism and neutralizing WMD, maybe you ought to find them.

Don't threaten me, sweetie. For one thing, its highly illegal. For another, the enemies are those who who would curtail free speech and lie to the public. What's a "peice", anyway?

ps, I bet the "battle" took your mind off the economy, didn't it?
pss, who ever heard of reducing revenues in the same year one purchases a luxury item (viz., a war)?
psss, do you feel compelled to use physical violence against everyone who disagrees with you? There's counsleling for that you know.

luv,

yusun, aka yaksun

Justin:

Pardon my sentence structure. I never meant to imply that Israel exported its brand of terrorism. They are mainly content to inflict it solely on the Palestinians. However, one could argue that, with the Neocon Manifesto, "The New American Century", written by Perle and friends with Sharon's blessing, that is exporting the Israeli notion of "crush, kill, destroy" (with apologies to Space Family Robinson) anything resembling a threat. And they DO have nukes. They do, they do, they do. Just like North Korea.

Using SRG's criteria, and throwing in nukes for good measure, why are we not regime-changing Pyong-yang? Answer, because THEY can fight back.

yaksun

Yaksun is right again! Isreal is the most oppressive, hateful country in the world. They have no tolerance for diversity over there. Anyone who is not Israli they just Bulldoze there houses down with little American high school girls inside! That's what I call terrorism! Also the Israli's killed Jesus. And Jews control America. Long time scrapple people like me will know that Yaksun has always had the Isralis figured out.

Also the war was all about oil. Iraq did not have WMD because they are not evil Isralis.

Also, I encourage all good Americans to be sure and attend Bill Terwilliger's Hollywood Fund raiser. All you can eat veggie burgers, 1,000 dollars a plate! Barbara Streisand will sing a few songs too.

Question: why are we not regime-changing Pyong-yang? Answer, because THEY can fight back.

Answer: We are not "regime-changing" Pyong-yang for several reasons:

1. Pyong-yang didn't invade Kuwait.
2. We didn't have to send troops to eject them from Kuwait during the Gulf War.
3. The UN didn't issue a cease-fire resolution stating if Pyong-yang didn't cooperate fully with UN inspectors, the cease-fire would cease to apply.
4. 12 years and many more UN resolutions did not follow events 1-3.
5. The UN security council did not vote unanimously that Pyong-yang would face serious consequences if it continued to evade UN weapons inspections and did not immediately disclose all WMD
6. Weapons inspectors did not subsequently find several undisclosed missiles that violated both the original cease fire agreements and subsequent resolutions -- and which clearly placed Pyong-yang in material breach.

Bambi,
Israel doesn't promote diverstiy eh? The arab would is calling for the death of all jews and the destruction of Israel. Where is the hatred? The whole israeli-palistianan (is there such a thing as a palistinian?) problem is a lot more complicated than you make it. If I remember right, all was well until the homicide attacks started again in 2000 by the palistinians. I don't agree with some of the israeli tactics, but they are fighting for their survival. Imagine being surrounded by tens of million of people who would dance in the street at your death!

Yaksun,
Yeah the have nukes, but are they a threat to use them without provocation?

One group of people has been taking the "Holy Land" away from another group for the last 4000 or 5000 years. Each one says it is theirs by holy writ or history or cause the prophet led them there.
All three of the major faiths involved claim to be all about peace and love and brotherhood, or at least about being let alone. How come none of them can even try to live up to the tenets of their own faith?

Want to get rid of nukes? Let's use them all to turn the entire Isreal/Palestine/Lebanon/West Bank/Gaza into a plain of radioactive glass. If we're in a good mood, we'll give the current inhabitants a few months to evacuate. If you are stupid or devout/fanatic enough to die for the Holy Land, we'll oblige you. You can go meet your Maker as a cloud of ionized gas.

Am I frustrated and blowing off steam, or is it wishful thinking? I'm still trying to decide.

Bambi: (ignore)

Justin: Probably not, which puts them ahead of some of their neighbors morally. Yet their techniques against rock-throwing teenagers lack subtlety at best.

Cassandra: No argument with the points you make, as they go. Notwithstanding, the fact remains that we are STILL AT WAR with North Korea. By contrast, Iraq the nation never once attacked the U.S. No one mourns the toppling of Saddam Hussein, a cruel, vicious dictator/murderer. I'm simply saying that the main reasons given for spending American lives in Iraq was to get rid of Saddam and his cronies and to neutralize WMD - neither of which have yet been found.

Additionally, the other reason given to justify the Iraq campaign is loosely given as to improve the lot of the Iraq people. This is noble, tho' I would not have done it. Kim Il Jong has nukes. He heads a country still at war not only with the US, but with the U.N.! He has breached nuclear treaties, tested long-range delivery systems aimed at our allies, if not US itself. His air force threatened an American plane. He had his troops set up automatic weapons in the DMZ in violation of cease fire terms. He has been caught exporting weaponry to a state which harbors terrorists (Yemen) and has threatened to do more. He has threatened South Korea and the US with annihilation. And, to satisfy some people who think I am fixated on petroleum, he DOESN"T HAVE OIL. Lastly, he is arguably more brutal to his people than Saddam was.

Why are you who advocated force in Iraq for all the stated "reasons" not pushing for force to change the regime in North Korea? It meets, if not exceeds all of the criteria for going after Iraq? In fact, the President is quoted as saying he loathes Kim.

I submit it is because GWB knows there would be no "3-week" war like in Iraq. No cake-walk to take the public's mind off the economy and the fact that he is trying to pass a tax cut that would be absurd in any year (unless one is wealthy or a corporation) and particularly in a year of a "war". In fact, the horse has left the barn on this one. But $9 billion for an anti-missile "umbrella" will calm a lot of fears. Just in case, I'm setting up a big sling-shot in case we miss on the first try.

Let the hate-mail come rolling in.

yaksun

Why is it that the UN inspectors were recently given three months of organized inspections to find WMDs, but the same 'patient' countries who were screaming to give them more time are lashing out at us for not uncovering the WMDs by now? I think those countries have already proven that they care nothing for the people in the region so I guess it shouldn't surprise me they also believe the coalition should screw the humanitarian aid and rebuilding of basic utilities and social services... let's just get to the important stuff. *note the sarcasm*

Or, to put it more simply (for those who like to think I'm a weak-sissy liberal afraid to fight for what's right): Rather than saying GWB (and the brave Donald Rumsfeld) have gone too far militarily, I submit they haven't gone near far enough.

prove me wrong.

yaksun

I was also wondering why it's so horrible to liberate Iraq just because they weren't as 'bad' as North Korea... you're saying we should have ignored the lesser evil even though it could have and has been dealt with quickly and successfully?

Using your logic... I have a gun. I see two people on the street. One is being held captive by a knife and one is being held captive by a gun. Neither is in immediate threat to me... don't you think it might be more productive to go after the lesser one, show your strength thereby saving a life (which I believe is worth as much as the life being held by a gun) and intimidating the man with a gun... who might now be pursuaded to back down without a violent confrontation (which would certainly be bloodier than the first battle)

to
yuksun
liberal
bambi

your collective think tank...haaaaaa of useless no account bunch of... its only me for the sake of me... so called morals like your great leaders osama, saddam and I did not haved sex with that woman bill clinton are all anti civilation
to bad you have no say what so ever ...it must be really sad being you... so wrong... so nothing and such total and complete losers,

and by the way I aint your sweetie, and by the way dont try and tell me whats legal no threat intended indeed your all fools and your support of al-qaeda and saddam, has not gone un noticed dont even kid your self you are al-qaeda supporters each and every one of you

how sad it must be to be you totaly alone and out of touch with reality you just dont get it
and you never will,

dont think your fooling anyone your protest is only to save your own chicken b*tts

I have seen your kind before in 1967, 1968, 1969 your all the same bunch of pathetic load mouths to afraid to defend your own country shooting your mouths off like you have some right to no pal

The only ones who have a right to protest are the ones who do the fighting and not you
got it

Jesus Liberal writes: God bless the WORLD you greedy,
selfish,
heartless,
egotistical
, deluded fools.***** and then

Bambi Boy wrote: "Someone like Jesus Liberals comes along with truth and intelligence and

******* "a loving attitude "*******

Ohhh..I FEEL DA LOVE!!!....much like one feels the grass when walking on a bed of nails!!!!!

BAMBI-BOY also wrote this regrading J-Lib----"
and you treat him like, like, well gosh like the Romans treated Jesus! You have nailed him to the cross and should be ashamed. Everything he said was right on and I understand him and agree 100% except for the Jesus part. Any smart person knows there is no Jesus. Except some of his teachings are pretty good, just like Jesus Liberals."
****OK....with that "theory" of yours....we DID NOT NAIL J-LIB TO THE CROSS LIKE THE ROMANS DID JESUS....remember in your state of scale covered eys you say there "is no Jesus"....then how could the Romans have nailed him ( who isn't/wasn't) the the cross?....

All I saw---especially from hrdlordi's insightful and INTELLIGENT post was that ....truth was held up to every one of J-Libs "counterfeit" points!...

Why is it so daggone important for liberals to "BE RIGHT" than to recognize and uphold truth??---the Clintonesque: "Im right even if I'm wrong" tude!! Its INSANITY!

Mommy! Can Bambi boy have some of Grandpas prozac?...how about going to AA with him??..

Bambi-boy> You say you're "treated poorly" here...well then why do you keep coming back?...and even though you may have to humble yourself--- ANSWER TRUTHFULLY!!

Just because someone removes a nativity scene from in front of the court house....doesn't negate His existence.

Just because someone doesn't believe in God---doesn't change the fact He loves them.....

Ignoring OR denying Him...doesn't make Him go away. He won't invade your space...but He won't Not exist cuz you choose to keep the scales on your eyes and mind.

Cat:

Well-put. Of course, your hypo assumes that I will intervene at all in either situation. Which raises the question of duty, etc. It also presupposes that the threat to the "captive" is roughly equal (knife vs. gun). It does not tell me whether, for instance, the "knife-captive" is a black belt in karate while the "gun-captive" is a 15 year old girl.

However, assuming I do intervene, either because I am bound to, or simply because I wish to, there is no guarantee that (a) I will subdue the "knife-captor" with my gun at all, (b) will subdue the "knife-captor" before (s)he kills the captive or, and most importantly for these purposes, (c) that the "gun-captor" will be dissuaded from his/her activity due to my heroic/foolhardy actions regarding the "knife-captor".

To make your example more accurate, you should add that your gun-captor has killed members of my family before (1951-1953), and has overtly threatened to do so again. Also, a nuclear "gun" is far more threatening than a chemical/biological "knife". Why the half-life of the fallout alone is thousands of years. Chem/biowar weapons have a short shelf life and are difficult to deploy w/o risk to the user, if nothing else. Assuming one can find them that is.

No. Your example is well-intentioned. but I do not think it is accurate. In any event, what if the "gun-captor" is NOT deterred? As Condom Rice liked to ask pre-Iraq, "Do you want the smoking gun to be a (NoKor) mushroom cloud?"

Thanks. Keep trying.

yaksun

Actually, "jp", the First Amendment guarantees the right to free speech, including protesting speech, to everyone - not just war veterans. You should read OUR Constitution some time. Using your logic, only those who fought ought be able to send others to fight - and we know GWB didn't fight. He did guard the skies over Texas though.

pax,

yaks

Yaksun,
I agree on NKorea. We are still at war and they have been upping the anty for the last 6 months. They know we are spread thin right now, but they also think they can blackmail us into a better deal for them. Give diplomacy a chance and lean on China to broker a deal. When that fails execute another brilliant plan and knock the Koreans on their butts and get rid of that psycho Jung Il.

The difference is that by promoting a democratic government in Iraq the wishfull thinking is that it will have a ripple effect in the region. I hope and pray that it works because it will solve a lot of probs throughout that region. If it fails, may Allah help us :)
NKorea isn't in that situation. China is going to falter by themselves, especially with this SARS (or better said, the asian flu). It is going to destroy their economy which is bad for them, but can be good for us. It will force companies to reinvest in the USA and stimulate our economy. If that is truy I guess it is our fault somehow (we created it and released it to destroy them, come on you conspiracy theorists I can hear you now). Back to my point, what is there to gain AT THIS MOMENTS from the toppling of NKorea that cannot wait 6 months. Of course we will have to deal with the UN again which is like eating two loaves of bread and 6 bananas a day and wonder why you are constipated.

To J-lib, Bambi, Yaksun and the rest of the Socialist/Communist bunch:

You have got to be kidding me. Here's J-Lib, spouting off some nonsence about war never bringing peace. Well, look what appeasement brought us, 6 million Jews dead in National Socialist Germany in WW2, 30 Million in Russia in the 1930's, over a million Vietnamese boat people, and let us not forget the tender mercies of Pol Pot. And those are just the highlights.

Please tell me how keeping Saddam Hussain in power would have promoted peace in Iraq?

Now, as far as North Korea goes, North Korea SAYS they have nukes (any mention of a test in the news?) and will export them to whoever is willing to pay them. We are trying to negotiate with them (remember, that's what you wanted us to do with Saddam) but all they want is food and fuel oil, and they want to give us ... NOTHING.
So six months later, we will have the same problem again. For North Korea, I say give the latest thermonuclear technology. On the wings of a Titan 3.

Oh yeah, the tax cut. Let me go at this in a roundabout way. When Kohls or Target or Walmart puts something on sale, what are they trying to accomplish? More sales. They're not trying to lose money, they are trying to make more money.
When you reduce the taxes on the ecomony, you will get more economy. Taxes cost the government nothing, because the government shouldn't be making a profit, EVER. There is so much government waste that you could cut certain departments 75-80% and the country would not feel a thing. However, there should be one difference in the tax code, everyone pays 10%, no ups, no extras. Everyone pays the same rate, that's as fair as it's going to get

As for Israel, would someone please explain (in gory detail) precisely which atrocity the Israelis have done beside breathing. Her neighbors have started 4 wars against her, when Israel wins, their neighbors complain "OK you won, but can we have our land back." BTW, World Book Encyclopedia from 1963: No Palestine on the map. There's Israel, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, & Egypt. NO PALESTINE!!! There is no Palestinian Homeland.

So, Scott, please forgive me for this long rant.

Finally, if you think the Socialist/Communist tag at the beginning was a personal attack, it wasn't.
This is just an accurate label for your kind.

(Mr Larkins now done with soapbox, exits stage right)

Yaksun:

I think we may end up in N. Korea at some point. But we have our hands full now. We need to finish what we started - help Iraq to rebuild and demonstrate goodwill to Iraqis and the rest of the world so they don't think we went in to take over. And it can't help but improve our negotiating position w/N. Korea to have them see that this administration means what it says. I would prefer to have us speak softly until we are ready to use that big stick.

Cat's point was very well taken - in any action, you weigh the benefit vs. the cost. Part of the urgency in Iraq was that we wanted to prevent them from gaining a nuke capability later on - something that we were not in a position to prevent in N. Korea. The risk was (relatively) small, the potential benefits great.

And surely you see that the same people who are screaming for us to intervene with N. Korea will be at our throats if and when we go after N. Korea.

I think we need to give diplomacy a chance (as we did for 12 years with Iraq), all the while assessing our options and getting ready to respond if diplomacy doesn't work. I think if we attack N. Korea, we are looking at World War. Are we ready for that? Who would be our allies?

We couldn't even get the UN to act when they all admitted they thought Saddam had WMD and was not complying. Unless I've missed something, the UN hasn't formally ruled that N. Korea is a rogue state. If we act now, we confirm everyone's worst fears and will have no support.

BTW: One more thing.

God Is Alive and Well.

If you are socialist your god is Lenin and Marx.

Lenin & Marx is the wrong side of history.

'nuff said.

yuksun
no yukky your logic has no merit, and you missed the point again
besides the fact you cant read,
and the pointless innuendo about the first amendment is irrelevant

as always the liberals with the biggest mouths screaming shallow transparent cover issues without a point on fact and nothing of any relevant fact or supportable grounds

now please I grow bored with you
go and play in the street and take bambi with you j-liberal

who is the " FRENCHMAN " in fact your all sounding like the "FRENCHMAN"

OK French-EE the game is up

ps
I love you all ...peace out

First Kudos to this site for not toleratiing obscenities on the posts this is the most constuctive exchange with those of differing ideas I have had. Cassandra, please forgive, I retract my venom from my initial posts. I apprecite your responses.

For hrdlordi-

Yes through WWI America has done right. I am still not secure in both of the Atom Bomb drops, but I will let that one aside.

It has only been since then that we have militarised and discovered the power of "a big stick." The government's fight against communism here and abroad is attrocious. (ie: training the Afganis to fight Russia). The government used it's resources to silence civiliam americans (notably Hollywood liberals) wholy in violation of the constitution (free speech and assembly) during the Mcarthy era. And J. Edgar Hover? He illegaly spied on everyone viewed as a dissenter (MLK, John Lennon) when he wasn't trying on women's clothes- not that theres any thing wrong with that. He was a Republican right? (or worked for one?)

We have put a lot of guns in a lot of bad hands haven't we? (middle east, south america, IRAQ) for what? Essentially we have supported brutal dictators in order to stop communists- wheater it was an ideological internal takeover or an external military one. We armed Saddam who was alrady gassing Kurds all because of our fear of Iran. We have not been universal in our support of freedom in the world rather for self interest and a claim to its resources. We have allowed and down right helped numerous Saddams run it their way if it worked to our benefit. And these crimes have been committed by both sides of the isle.

I see great opportunities for the US, but the real lasting impact we have left so far are craters and dead civilians. I will wait for Bush to really fix Iraq, as i am waiting also for Afganistan. WIll you cry foul if he lets it slip by once it's no longer in the spotlight? From what i understand, we killed 3000 civilians in our persuit of the Taliban/Al Queda in Afganistan. Couldn't they reply that they only did the same trying to take down our World Trade Center and our Pentagon, arguably legitimate stategic targets, and our 3000 civilians are colateral from that effort?

And lastly, my biggest pointer to the corruption of Bush and the reason why I doubt his intentions are pure: Saudi Arabia. That's where the terrorists were from. Not Iraq and not even Afganistan althrough that was where they trained and hid out. Saudi Arabia is no bastion of American Values, there is no equality or freedom there. The princes run the place like despots and with our blessing and support (and military presence). In fact that was Osamas main gripe. That we were interlopers itefering with his homeland and influencing the destiny of his people with our military support of the current regeime. There are numerous pictures of Bush Sr happily sitting with them shaking hands and all. So why are we not scrutinizing them and tracking their wealth and it's involvement with terrorism? It's gotta be the oil, right? And Iran is more of a threat than Iraq was, but went into Iraq which has more- oil. Why is there always a big pot of oil invovled in a Bush(Cheney) Agenda? Monsters- has yet to be proven, but they are suspiciously calous in their dealings with the rest of the world. I call them monsters their insterest in not killing civilians is purely political- because the darn liberal media is on their back ready to report it. I don't see you guys caring much about the innocents killed in our pursuits of american justice, so I know they don't even bat an eye.

I don't hate America, I just don't love it more than humanity itself. I (and you all) have eternal life with God, so believing that, why should I think my country has the right to wage war and murder more innocents than guilty people just to protect something so impermenent as our "nation." Why is my way of life so special that I can kill for it pre-emtively? Isn't it the meek that iwll inherit the earth? What is meek bout the MOAB? Heaven awaits friends, so why support anything that causes suffering regardless of the implications? With god, The bad guys never win wheather they kill you or not. What we're embarking on isn't self defense, it's a premtive unilateral assult against all who oppose us. This is earthly huberis, greed for the things that will be taken away when we pass on. It is futile and down right wrong to kill so willingly for it's riches. This sort of Warfare will only bring about the final war- and America will not survive that intact. I will not meet my maker with a gun in my hand because that means I was more concerned with protecting something outside of me than my own soul (yes even my own child- I will take the bullet). No weapons in heaven, so we don't need them on earth. What would Jesus do? Land on an Aircraft carrier and give the thumbs up? Justice is God and God's alone. Bless you all.

J Lib posted this in one of his posts earlier

"Hey, the last line was just a dig at conservatisim- I mean come on, it's not like you guys are known for CARING about starving, under educated, sick children (especially those of color) or their abandoned mothers (Definition of Faith in the Epistle of James). You care more about "vehicular choice" and 300 dollar rebate checks."

Guys got a point there.

J lib
you sound almost exactly like Frenchman, same argument different name and I'm saddened to say longer winded.

BTW, we let the UN help out in Afghanistan and that's the problem. Every news report I've read especially in Newsweek is that we don't want the UN in Iraq because of all the probs in Afghanistan.

You drag up the past, which is good and bad. We need to remember the past and ensure we don't make the same mistakes (too late), but you drag up all these incidents from the cold war. I'm with you about all the arm sales, Hoover being a cross-dressing blackmailing SOB etc, but what Bush is having to do is fix all the past mistakes. These mistakes caused the problem and he was unfortunate (fortunate for us) to be in office at this time (I know you don't like him, but imagine Al Gore, yikes!).

We do need to get strong armed with the saudis, we have put up with to much from them and it is time to play tough (I know, it won't happen, but at least we are leaving).

Give us some solutions. You asked us to, let's here some of yours....like cut government BS spending so we can lower taxes. Spend more money on schools and health care (but stay away from socialistic medicine etc). etc

more later, I don't want to cause undo reading

Hi J Lib

Your last post shows that you feel America has discovered "Big Stick" diplomacy since the end of the cold war. Well you are right but its not a new thing or IMHO a bad thing.

War is achieving political aims by violent means and always has been. The political aims can be terratorial, financial or hierarchical in various measures but the bottom line is its just business. War is never personal at the government level but a carefully calculated assessment of risk vs reward (mostly). The US at present can take anybody on with little risk of defeat so the option of force is so much easier to take.

From a political point of view I do not see how the constant references to Israels protection by the US are justified. I think most Americans and us Brits including heads of state would love to nuke the whole mess as SRG suggested. However that not being an option Israel and its neigbours must be forced to live in peace one way or another and soon. The overthrow of the Iraqi regime has been a large step forward in this aim because people in the Middle East now know exactly how far the US can be pushed.

I think that Saddam had to go down along with the Taliban because of 9/11 and for no other reason, if 9/11 had not happened they would both still be there; anybody disagree? Also I am very glad that America has stopped messing about and taken up the big stick to deal with people who cannot allow others to live as they wish.

North Korea is only a threat if we all want to allow ourselves to be bullied by this ridiculous tin pot nation. It may even come to military action but sooner or later Kim il Jong has got to go nukes and all.

Whilst I am aware that war is not much fun for anybody having been involved in a couple myself and I would not wish anybody to assume I am advocating armed conflict, sometimes it is the only thing to do. Turn the other cheek and you will be kicked in the head. There is no such thing as peace in this world only varying degrees of enforced tolerance. In reality I think that enforced tolerance on a world wide scale is the only goal we may possibly achieve but paradoxically it will take violence to do it.

Or am I just a warmongering right wing thug?

I suppose as an alternative we could always give all our money and know how away to cure, feed, house, educate and industrialise the third world countries that hate the west so much and hope that they all see what nice people we are and change their ways engendering a golden era of peace and harmony for all. Hmmmm!

:) Jonah

Justin is correct, the reason that Afghan reconstruction is going so slowly is because the US allowed normal contract precourment (sp?) to take place there.

The Bush administration is not making the same mistake in Iraq.

JP - Jesus Liberal is not the first to use the name Jesus for his own puposes. See Acts Chapter 13 and read about the encounter of Paul and Baranabas with the man Bar-Jesus

Do any liberals know the history of Europe following the conquest of Germany? Oh that is right Liberals don't read history.

Here is a synopsis. There were many revenge killings and much ethnic conflict in Germany, Italy and the other liberated countries such as France. It also took some time (over two years) for things to calm down in the major cities and local parallel authorities to begin to be empowered (except of course in the Soviet sectors - and we all know why that was).

In Mosul yesterday (after two weeks of unrest) there is a multi-ethnic local goverment in place, unparalleled in modern history!!
You can largely thank the Kurds for that who have spent the last decade building an autonomous Republic in the northern third of Iraq - and note also that a Kurd is not the new leader of Mosul and only one sits on the ruling council of the city.

no j lib

FREEDOM IS GODS GIFT TO HUMANITY
YOU STILL DONT GET IT

ps be careful who you think your preaching to
jericho - you know not who I am before you speaking about the kurds past see this

http://www.krg.org/reference/halabja/halabja1.asp

to
Jesus Liberal

go to this web site

http://www.krg.org/reference/halabja/halabja1.asp

IN FACT EVERYONE GO TO THIS WEB SITE, THEN WE WILL TALK ABOUT " JUSTICE "

I am still waiting
j-lib
yuksan

ahhh yes as always seeing the truth stops em dead

http://www.krg.org/reference/halabja/halabja1.asp

WMD - see the proof you both happy now.. I hope you both have nightmares for the rest of your lives 100,000 kurds 800,000 Iranians countless Kuwait citizens shall I go on ..

Now run to your Tom Robbins, Susan Surrandon they will protect you with a PAPER SHEILD

jp don't worry about yaksun, he has this fantasy that everyone si threatening him. I understood your invitation to meet you in New York was to show him the WTC site-didn't see the threat at all. By the way Yaksun, you still don't know crap about the law, and as to what is illegal or not. A threat made to you here would not be a violation of federal or state law, unless it could actually be carried out. For example, if I said, "if you were a man I would rip off your head and stick it down your neck," that would only be a threat if you were a man, and since you're not, it follows the doctrine of impossibility, no crime. Same thing as JP said, "come to New York... and I'll show you a pit..." That wasn't a threat to begin with, but even if it was, it would depend on your going to New York. And if you did go to New York, you would be consenting to any assault that occured. I would not prosecute the case.

Show me your bar card and I'll show you mine.

Terroristic Threatening- a Class 4 misdemeanor.

However, if the threat were delivered on a somethat anonymous blog, it would not be considered a violation of the law. There is no potential for immediate physical harm.

(a KBA, LBA, and ABA member)

Also a threat to beat someone up does not fall under terroristic threat but simple assault. And the same standard applies/anonymous blogs are not realistic threats. Again though, JP didn't even threaten, he invited yakloser to new york to visit the WTC site to help them understand the position JP was taking.

We even have email harassment and stalking statutes in Maryland which wouldn't apply to bulletin boards or weblogs as they are not emails under the statute. Geez, how do I know this - as the chief of white collar and computer crime prosecution division thats how. You see, it takes a prosecutor to raise a criminal violation. (play on it takes a village to raise a child).

By the way, I won't be a member of the ABA anymore since they take such a leftest, liberal view which is in direct disagreement with most prosecutors.

Darth wants to show me his if I'll show him mine. I think I feel aroused.

Darth proclaims that he only prosecutes "white collar crime". What does that say? He's too good to soil himself with seeing that child molestors, rapists, murderers and arsonists get punished. Wow, you must be a "better class" of prostitutor, uh prosecutor. Bet most of your def's are Republican CEOs.

I may not know crap about the law, but I know a neo-fascist, blow-hard, bullying a** when I hear one. Come find me, Mr. former air force intel (oxymoron) guy. I'm waiting for ewe.

Now that I have matched your time-wasting, irrelevant side trip into personal attacks, can we get back to the point here?

The WTC has what to do with Iraq?

Is Darth going to prosecute Osama and Saddam, assuming we find them?

Why proclaim victory from the safety of an aircraft carrier instead of from Fallujah?
Yes, Saddam used big, mean, nasty chem/bio weapons over a decade ago against the Kurds - when Bush, Sr. hung them out to dry. Where are the ones the Admin. swore he had that were worth American kids dying for this year? No Saddam, no Osama, no WMD.

Enough about me, answer the question, Darth. You think you're the big dog here. Do you plan on talking North Korea to death? Wowing them into submission with the size of your bar code, uh card? To heck with this little video-game "constabulary action". I say, let's get it on with a real war. Maybe GWB can fly a real combat mission for once in his life. That ought to be worth some points in the polls. Maybe Kim is bluffing. Maybe he has no nukes. What a golden opportunity to find out, while they are still over there.

jp - Yes, I really grieve for your friends the 800,000 Iranians. Say, aren't they from the Axis of Evil? You wouldn't be a sympathyzer would you? After all, if yer not fer US, yer agin US. Here's a truth for you. The CIA backed Saddam before he came to power. Your friend, and mine, Rumsfeld, backed him after he came to power - while he was killing your other friends, the 800,000 Iranians. explain that. Oh, did the truth stop you cold?

jp: "The only ones who have a right to protest are the ones who do the fightinh and not you."

Horse puckey. (Is that innuendo? I thought innuendo was an Italian suppository.)

bon jour,

yaksun

Outstanding discussionsÖ. Have a day off and you get out of the ëloopí!!!

Josh- lib (Jesus is the Greek of Joshua- and josh can mean joke- as in you got to be kidding me!!!)

Your previous statement-ì Hey, the last line was just a dig at conservatisim- I mean come on, it's not like you guys are known for CARING about starving, under educated, sick children (especially those of color) or their abandoned mothers (Definition of Faith in the Epistle of James). You care more about "vehicular choice" and 300 dollar rebate checks.î about liberals being compassionate and conservative being ëmean spirited and uncaring (implied)í is totally false. If you mean throwing other peopleís (yours and mine) at problems is being caring- well then sure- conservative donít care. I would say that liberals are enablers- they allow people with their ësocialí programs to remain in poverty, remain uneducated, destroy their family structure, etc (look at the statistics ever since LBJ)!!! I taught in a junior high school for 8 years in a little town in PA called Red Lion (ya- the same one- Dr. Gene Segro was a good boss-they are ëhealingí slowly). The Union reps always told me I needed to vote democratic because they support educationÖÖ Republicans donít??? Giving more money to schools will not make them better per se, holding students, teachers, administrator and PARENTS accountable will!! For example- If I am a pathetic employee- giving me a pay raise will not mysteriously make me employee of the month (unless I work at the un)!!! Conservatives feel that allowing a person to achieve success on their own is much better for the Country, the economy, the community and for the individual and their family!!!! Get it? And in the NT- it was the local congregationís responsibility to ëfendí for the widow, orphans, etcÖ.. not building bigger churches and lots of power point presentations! They failed to keep up with the demand during the depression- so we can thank FDR for that!!! (If I recall my history correctly)

Yes I want $300 extra dollars from the governmentÖ donít you??? I ëearnedí it! Since there is no Amendment to the Constitution for freedom to drive SUVs- we should take that away from people??? Tolerance?

Josh- I agree that war is terrible; thankfully I have never experienced it first hand. GWI- I was a senior in college and now I am almost ëtooí old, married and have children. But diplomacy with ëobstinateí and uncooperative countries is futile! It would be great to live in your fairy tale world were every one is nice and concerned about the welfare of others. There are bad people in the world!!! There are people for a multitude of reasons hate us (USA) !! There is nothing we can do about thatÖ. Sending them billions of dollars in aid doesnít help, blaming us for their problems doesnít help, ONLY the total annihilation of the United States might make them crack a smile!

I donít like to have to discipline my children, I would prefer them to listen and be obedient- but sometimes I must. Sometimes that discipline comes in the form of punishment!! Which is painful ñ for both them and me!!! But if I donít teach them that now- they will grow up to be liberals, oops, erÖ criminals. Tears flow at times. (No, I am not implying that the US is the worldís ëbig brotherí-but our interests supercede others- in terms of the government!!! As someone astutely stated- with the government- it isnít personal- just business!!!) That is a harsh reality.

Yaksun- or whoeverÖ
I agree that NK is a concern- but there posturing is always followed by their hand extended for a handout!!! We should be concerned, but they have not gone through the same ëpoliticalí process that Iraq did. They have not recently invaded any of their neighbors. I disagree with your idea that the US military would struggle in a conflict with them! It might be more difficult than Iraq- but if the military has the leading role- no doubt about it. Not saying it would not be expensive in terms of lives lost and the financial areas.

Back to Josh-
My ways are not HIS ways nor are my thoughts HIS thoughts. There is corruption anywhere there is power and money!!! I am not justifyingÖ. People make large $$$ donations to politicians so they have a ësayí in what is going on!!! It happens on both sides of the aisle and from the Federal government to your local municipality!!! Shall we set up a benevolent dictatorship so that you can genuinely lead is through peace, mercy and love. Even King David fell for the entrapments of powerÖ. Remember the Bathsheba thing!!! Then he went and made it worse by killing Uriah the Hittite.

Oh, BTW- letís discontinue the ëwe deserveí(liberal hand outs) it thinkingÖletís see, when I am speeding I deserve to get a speeding ticket (fortunately- doesnít happen too often), when I am having a little pity-party for myself- I deserve to have all of my material possessions spontaneously destroyed, when I fail to be thankful for the blessings of living in the USA, I get shipped to anyone of numerous countries where the people are on survival mode, when I fail to recognize the price that was paid by great men and women who gave me these freedoms- I should have to walk door to door to all of their family members and beg forgiveness, when I am tired and cranky and I am not patient with my wife and/or 3 beautiful daughters- I should spend the rest of my life alone!!! I have more than I need!!!

My two cents (ya, I know it is a penny for your thoughts)- Israel is going to be around for a while, with or without the USí help- hopefully with!

Why donít we develop new energy resources and stop using oil- then the Middle East can go back to their pre- WWII economy of the worldís largest exporter of sand!!!! Many problems solved without the cash!!!!

(PS- the hrdl or hrdlordi stands for hurdle!!! No delusions of grandeur with the ëlordí thing!)

Yaksun,

Your point of us making bad decisions in the past by backing the 'wrong' horse is a constant in human history. In WWII- the USSR was supposedly our 'ally'- but that changed quickly! In hindsight it is easy to say Patton was right and we should have driven to Moscow instead of stopping at Berlin. The Romans used mercenaries at the end of their empire because their citizens were too worried about eating and having 'fun'- those mercenaries were eventually the Germanic barbarians that helped to destroy the Roman Empire.

Did you ever hear of the saying- the 'lesser of two evils'??? Not the best plan- but it is a plan!!

Since your crystal ball works so well, you could win the next big lottery, run for political office and make all of the correct decisions and save the entire world from itself!!! I would greatly appreciate it!!! Let me know the other areas of your platform... then I can decide if I will vote for you!!!

And about your crack on Darth- not everyone can be a personal injury lawyer and be concerned about the well being of the downtrodden. Wow- I was unaware that only Republican CEOs were criminalsÖ those democrats are so altruistic!(can you say whitewater) Maybe Ted Kennedy and the hollywood left can personally pay for all of the social programs that this country is lacking!!!

hrdlordi: (On N. Korea) "Their posturing is always followed by their hand extended for a handout."

If its just posturing, then let's take Kim out now while its safer. Don't the North Koreans deserve to be liberated from their suffering as much as the Iraqis? If its not just posturing, then he is not a good person to control a small nuclear arsenal. The alternative is that we get to feed his starving people while he spends all his money on himself and on building up his arsenal to sell or use against us and our allies. I'm asking our Administration to be consistent.

And that's without the benefit of hindsight.

Also, maybe not all wh. collar def's are Rep. CEOS, but today's AP report on how Richard Perle briefed an investment seminar on how to profit from an Iraqi conflict reeks of conflict of interest.

I don't like to crack on anybody. I'd prefer to stick to the issues.

WMD (What Mass Destruction)

yaksun

Maybe we can get the un to set up a nuclear weapons/material for money set up!! That way Kofi can benefit, Russia and France can then sell the nuclear material to Iran, Syria, etc.

Everyone will be happy- except for the North Korean people- but powerful people will be getting richer!!!

If the administration goes after every nation which 'mistreats' their people- we will have a number of countries to have regime changes....
accordng to many democrats- that would mean a self-inflicted strike and regime change!!

Yaksun,
"White collar crime" means that Darth specializes in corporate law, and the criminal aspects of corporate law: embezellment, computer fraud, etc.
It's like a doctor specializing in opthamology. Not so much not wanting to "dirty" themselves, but concentrating on what they are good it.
Me, I'm in insurance law.
You gonna insult me now for not putting the bad guys in jail? Or for not defending them?

WMDs and the Kurds: So now you're mad for not invading Iraq in '91? Make up your mind.

Do I grieve for 800,000 dead Iranians? No
Do I greive for the innocent dead as "collateral damage"? A little.
Am I grad we removed a major destabilizing influence in an area of the world where we get a large percentage of a resourse vital to our national economy? Yes. Sounds like "Blood for Oil" doesn't it? So what. To this country, oil is blood. No trucks or trains running, no food gets from the farm to the consumers. No food, no life. Simple, isn't it.

I'm all in favor of switching to another power source. I'd love to be able to tell OPEC, "No, we don't need any."

In my cracked crystal ball, I see that as the point when all hell breaks loose in the Middle East. When we either stop needing oil, or run out, folks in power in the Mid-East are going to panic. The only thing they can do to keep their own people from tearing them down is to run like crazy (I'd like that billion in $20s, please), or claim they are tight with Allah, and preach a major Jihad against the Great Satan.
2050 looks like it may be a real "interesting" time to live in, and hopefully through.

Jonah posted:

"J Lib posted this in one of his posts earlier

"Hey, the last line was just a dig at conservatisim- I mean come on, it's not like you guys are known for CARING about starving, under educated, sick children (especially those of color) or their abandoned mothers (Definition of Faith in the Epistle of James). You care more about "vehicular choice" and 300 dollar rebate checks."

Guys got a point there."

Yeah, that must be why in a recent study of charitable giving (people giving to organizations that help "starving, under educated, sick children") New Englanders (mostly blue, liberal states) gave much less than those in the South and Midwest (mostly red, conservative states).

Here is an article to backup the claim in my last post:

http://www.bigeye.com/jacoby.htm

twalsh--- those liberals just have a better pr machine than conservatives!!! talk is cheap...

...or we put our money where our mouth is!!!

twalsh:

Thanks - I was dying to respond to that post yesterday, but I had expended my personal supply of hot air and decided it was time for me to shut up.

Perfect response.

-Casserole

Or to put it more simply, since this Iraqi thing has whetted my appetite for blood and destruction:

I submit that this Administration is afraid to wage "pre-emptive war" in North Korea, under its own criteria for doing so, because it does not want to militarily challenge an enemy which really CAN fight back.

SRG: Invade Iraq in '91? No. It was better to encourage the Kurds and others to rise against against a militarily superior Saddam and then leave them hanging out to dry.

Enjoy your tax cut. Its far more important than a balanced budget.

yaksun

And while we're at it, lets do Vietnam over again the right way.

yaksun

Yaksun writes-
I submit that this Administration is afraid to wage "pre-emptive war" in North Korea, under its own criteria for doing so, because it does not want to militarily challenge an enemy which really CAN fight back.

Where has NK proven it's military in the past 50 years??? Haven't they gotten most of their weapons and technology from the USSR and China???

Enjoy your tax cut. Its far more important than a balanced budget.

We do need a balanced budget, but as I tell my wife- it is spend LESS, not work more!!!! If you don't have it- you shouldn't be able to spend it... kind of like most of the 50 states this fiscal year!!!

Yaksun:

If you are so worried about balancing the budget, why are you in such a hurry to launch another war?

You can't do everything at once. You seem to expect Bush to do a lot of contradictory things all at the same time. Invade this country! Balance the budget! Find the WMD! But protect the Iraqis at the same time! Solve problems in the Middle East that have remained unsolved for decades!

Maybe he could develop a cure for SARS and achieve global peace and harmony while he's at it.

Yak,
Gephardt unvailed his little socialistic medicine plan last week. If initiated it would cost over 200 billion the first year and would go up after that. He even admited that the plan would put the budget in the red (even after rescinding all tax cuts), thus making him a "deficit dove." Don't believe me, get the May 5 Newsweek and on pg 48 is an article titled "A Genuinely Healthy Debate."

We need to find alternate fuel choices. Use nuclear energy and send the waste to Nevada (100 miles north of where I live) and give me a huge incentive check for living in the nuclear dump of the usa (it is actually really safe transport etc, but that is my hazmat training coming out).

If you want a good cheap source of oil read this article, it will blow your mind and I totally need to get stock options in this guys company:
http://www.discover.com/may_03/gthere.html?article=featoil.html

Hrdlordi,
I think we should pay the teachers really well, but hold them to a very high standard. The money will invite better talent and the standards will ensure better performance. Just a thought.

Cassandra: Good point. But in the case of GWB, he not only doesn't care about balancing the budget as he launched his war, he wants to slash revenues as well by cutting taxes in the same TY.

Do we want to cure SARS too soon? Its keeping the Chinese at bay - the better to go after N.K. and Vietnam.

As for me, I am willing to postpone balancing the budget for the sake of killing Commies. At least I won't be pushing to cut taxes. I might even raise them.

hrllordi - Thanks for sticking to the topic. Since Russian and French weapons proved so inferior in GWII, its added incentive to go now. After we kill Kim, we wipe out Hanoi. THen, we move straight into Russia. The Baltic fleet is in mothballs. The missile silos are in disrepair. I doubt if they could launch too many our way. Their soldiers got their asses kicked in Afghanistan, which we took in what, a month? Is there any doubt that Russia exports and funds terrorism?

Its time to finish the job that GWB has barely started. Who's gonna stop US. China? They need our money and are too busy trying to steal our technology. We have an unprecedented opportunity to do some REAL [ ]kicking, and I don't mean against the third-string.

No, I'm not kidding. Just because I was not in favor of the Iraq "war" doesn't mean I'm against all wars.

yaksun

Yaksun, I did investigte and prosecute child molesters , rapists, drug addicts, burglars, thieves, robbers, spouse abusers, murderers, drunk drivers, pot heads, drug dealers, perverts, pimps, and white collar criminals. But because I was so good at it, my boss made me the chief of the white collar and comptuer crime division. What I mean by "so good at it" means that I could add numbers and knew more about computers than how to send email and blog. Since I had this "expertise" I got to specialize. We also had a violent crimes division, a narcotics division, and juvenile division, a property crimes division and a sex crimes division. Its called management.

I've picked up bodies and pieces of bodies and "dirtied my hands" by telling a perverted child molester how I understand his affection for 6 year old girls so he would confess. I was not Air Force Intelligence, I was Air Force Office of Special Investigations.

My white collar defendants were primarily white males and some females, but the last major prosecution I had involved a democrat, ph.d, who was the former Secretary of Education for the State of Maryland under Governor Mandel. He created a program to help deadbeat dads get jobs and stole over half a million dollars to support his gambling habit-he bet on the horses. He loved have a social program he could syphon money from.

I couldn't tell you the party affiliation of the others, but will bet I had both democrats and republicans, because political parties don't matter to people who are thieves.

Yaksun, let me ask you this question - have you ever taken something from somebody who trusted you without their permission?

Thank you SRG for your comments, even though we haven't agreed on everything here, I respect your opinion and positions. And I find them witty. I also agree with most of them.

One more point Yaksun, you asked what the WTC had to do with the subject. So obviously you need someone to draw you a picture, or talk really slow. JP d i d n o t t h r e a t e n y o u , h e i n v i t e d y o u t o c o m e t o n e w y o r k a n d h e w o u l d s h o w y o u t h e p i t (WTC) i n t h e g r o u n d.

Hope you can figure out the answer now.

Ah, Darth. The question I asked actually was:

"What has the WTC to do with Iraq?"

I can't draw a picture for ewe, but how about this:

1 + 1 = 2.

Notwithstanding your prosecutorial skill, your personal attacks, your bluster, your constant referral to your credentials, etc., neither you nor anyone else here or elsewhere has submitted one shred of proof linking the nation of Iraq with the attack on the WTC. Therefore, why do you and yours keep referring to the WTC as justification for attacking Iraq?

Also, as to the subject, it happens to be: Why your hero GWB won't follow his own formula and attack a nation which is a) more richly deserving it and b), one with which the US is still at war with the UN's blessing? I submit its because he and his advisors are afraid that North Korea would not cave in in 3 weeks in a "cake-walk". I invite you and Rumsfeld and your ilk to prove me wrong. I submit the folks on this blog who were so gung-ho to attack a 3d rate military non-entity like Iraq would soil themselves if caught in a REAL war - not the video game kind.

I understand your reluctance to stick to the point, since you usually have none. I will not indulge you in your favorite pastime of digressing into vitriolic personal asides. You remind me of many attorneys I have been in court against. When the law and the facts are against you, yell the loudest.

Now, tell me about North Korea, a subject I don't believe you've ever really weighed in on with that formidable opinion of yours. And what do you think of taking out the Russians? Or is it asking too much for you to quit your blathering about me and stay on topic?

yak

Yak,
if you want to safe yourself a trip to NYC, I could probably send you a picture from the "Pit" that I took when I helped out there in March '02. Would you like the one that shows the fire fighters raking through debris looking for even the smallest bady part or the one showing them pulling a torso size chunk out of it? Let me know

North Korea is definitely a threat of a different sort. Studying North Korea one learns that they like to use the threat of nukes to force the US to give them something, it worked with your buddy Bill Clinton. Its called extortion by the way. But I agree, we need to look very seriously at North Korea, of course once we do you will be the first one here ranting how wrong-headed that is. Russia is not a threat. they were much mmore of a threat during the cold war and we didn't attack them, because we knew they were maniacs who beleived their own destruction was worth attacking us. The middle eastern philosophy is quite different, they beleive that if they are destroyed attacking the infidel-which you and I are considered-then they will reap the rewards in heaven. We believed that going into Iraq and were surprised to learn that saddam and his troops valued life, their own, over everything. Maybe its because he had a progressive government. Porgressive in the sense that Islamic law did not rule, women could work, they drank alcohol, and they screwed anyone they could.

By the way, you started the personal attacks a long time ago, and like Tim Robbins, get angry if people play your game.

So, did you ever take something from someone who trusted you without their permission? You never answered the question.

Justin: Seen the pix, thanks. I would like to see yours if there's an Iraqi uniform among the debris.

I also submit that the Iraq "war" was less about oil, or WMD, or freedom for Iraqis, than it was for getting GWB re-elected by appearing to be decisive in the wake of 9/11. A 3-week "tailhook" photo-op.

Where is Osama?

yaksun

Darth:

I am not angry and would like to take the high road, but I am willing to respond in kind. I am not the topic for discussion. War and the reasons for waging the same are.

So you are apparently willing to cater to Kim's blackmail and feed his citizens while he rapes his country? You did not say you favor "regime-changing" him, so I must conclude you favor caving to his demands. Wrong-headed philosophy.

Russia is still very much a threat. As Yeltsin saw not so long ago, the "government" is a coup waiting to happen. Due to the influence of the only real power there, organized crime, the Communists are just just a dead president away from claiming the ability to restore order. Yet another example of what happens when stable (if brutal) regime is replaced by a vacuum.

Bill Clinton disgraced the Office of the Presidency and is/was no friend of mine. I feel bad for the public humiliation he put his wife through however. Bad Rep's take office for money. Bad Dem's take office for sex.

Justin: It would be great if we could develop an alternative fuel source. Maybe we'll live to see it happen.

yaksun

If GWB was trying to curry favor, he probably wouldn't have gone against the UN and pretty much alienated France, Germany, and Russia. He had no way of knowing whether the war would have turned into a vietnam or not.

I submit that the war was about him having some guts, taking the information presented to him after 9/11 and doing something about it. You know, it could just be possible that GWB has some info coming in that the rest of us don't have access to.

I can't accept the fact that Bush did this just to get elected, give him a little more credit than that.

Yaksun wrote

Notwithstanding your prosecutorial skill, your personal attacks, your bluster, your constant referral to your credentials, etc., neither you nor anyone else here or elsewhere has submitted one shred of proof linking the nation of Iraq with the attack on the WTC. Therefore, why do you and yours keep referring to the WTC as justification for attacking Iraq?

Guilt, innocence and proof were not important. A lesson needed to be taught and learned in the old fashioned way. This was not about punishment, revenge, oil, finishing what daddy started or any of the other conspiracy theories I have heard. It was about sending a very clear message about the nature of power and whom wields it.

jonah

Cat:

Again, you raise interesting points. Since I have not heard a compelling reason justifying the obliteration of Iraq, I don't think it is outrageous to suggest that a quick, successful strike against a militarily weak, unpopular dictator would look appealing to the pollsters and a public angry after 9/11.

Your reference to alienating the named nations and the UN in general actually bolsters my point however. Look how the Anti-France/Anti-Un feeling galvanized many undecided persons to react in favor of defying the UN and France's "obstructionist" positions.I think one has to ask the hard question: Were those folks really our "allies"? I say, "no". But then, I would never have gone thru the UN in the first place, if I believed in the validity of invading Iraq as the Admin. claimed to do. The deck was stacked against the Admin. ever receiving UN approval.

Justin: Cheap publicity stunts (ridiculed even in the UK) such as having the Prez land by fighter on a carrier floating off the Cal. coast do not mitigate in favor of his credibility.

Jonah: I cannot disagree with your statement.

yaksun

Jonah:
(stand at attention, salute)
Sir, yes, sir!

Succinct, subtle, and very much on point. Thank you sir for boiling it down to its essence.

Yaksun:

re: I also submit that the Iraq "war" was less about oil, or WMD, or freedom for Iraqis, than it was for getting GWB re-elected by appearing to be decisive in the wake of 9/11.

GWB doesn't have to do anything extra to "appear to be decisive" - he has been consistently decisive (whether or not you approve of his decisions) ever since he was elected. That's what the liberals can't forgive.

And I think you have the "formula" all wrong. What brought Tony Blair and GW together was a mutual committment to fighting terrorist groups AND THE GOVERNMENTS THAT CONTINUE TO FUND AND SUPPORT THEM. These groups don't get far without the money and cover that rogue nations provide. And there is plenty of evidence of a link between Al-Quaeda and Saddam - even if you do not wish to admit it.

When a nation defies the UN, violates a cease fire agreement, will not disclose or destroy its WMD, meets with Bin Laden on several occaisions (sp?), publicly supports further terrorist actions like 9/11, shelters terrorist training camps, and provides medical care to known terrorist leaders...well, to paraphrase Jeff Foxworthy, "it just might be a big threat" (OK, so it doesn't exactly rhyme with "redneck")

And another thing:

re: Cheap publicity stunts (ridiculed even in the UK) such as having the Prez land by fighter on a carrier floating off the Cal. coast do not mitigate in favor of his credibility.

Perhaps not, but they go a long way with the sailors and pilots on that carrier. It's all about symbolism - he trusted the pilots and crew enough to risk a tailhook landing, shared in what they experience every day, gave them a little razzle-dazzle, and -- as Tim Russert pointed out -- it was obvious that any one of those guys would have taken a bullet for him. Hearts and minds.

The military is tired of being treated as a necessary evil - it is war that is the necessary evil.

Cat: I forgot to add , all of my points are based on my observations as one with NO insider knowledge. You correctly point out that the Admin. may have info not revealed to the public justifying thier actions. I submit though, the reasons they DID give (WMD, freeing Iraqis, the terrorist connection) have not been borne much fruit so far. In that regard, what would it hurt to have Un weapons insectors join the hunt? As long as they don't get in the way, the worst they can do is continue to find nothing. Also, you have to concede the whole forged document proving Iraq attempting to buy uranium from Nigeria or whereever was inept at best. Also, what about North Korea?

Cassandra: Okay. He has done things since 9/11. I concede that, even tho I don't agree with all of them, he has made decisions - thus he has been descisive. You win on that point. (Grrr.) I think I was trying to say what Jonah put much better. He was advised to do something, anything, to show US would not take 9/11 lying down. My dispute is with the decision taken, not the lack of making a decision. Thanks, for setting me straight.

yaksun

The ABA is (sadly) defunct. You people are clearly living in the past.

Cassandra: Re your last post, I can see where you are coming from. I'm just real cyinical about politicians in general. If you say a military person would appreciate the "tailhook" landing, I accept it. I do support our troops, no matter what. Therefore I won't bring it up again. It's just a matter of perspective I suppose, and a fairly minor point.

As far as that goes, the Iraq "war" is a fait accompli. I didn't want it, but I'm glad we won. The question bugging me more is where to go from here? Kim Il Jung is a wacko. The mullahs running Iran are dangerous too. The Russian Mafia is making inroads here in the US. Islam wants to build a super-state including parts of the Philippenes and Austrailia.

Using the same reasoning as with Iraq, how can the US justify not taking some or all of them out?

yaksun

Attentioning here to,
Imperialist,running, is yellow and the scrapplemask dogs which it operates. The Kim Jung Il is not watching posts, yes. To the country which Korea is mighty there is an angle one triumph of your family which in one of our 100 of nucleus missles it does in the target. The exception which is only is the Bambi. I will have for you to see special something I have to show.

p.s. I hold the fact that you are the male.

yuksun
jesus liberal

I am still waiting

http://www.krg.org/reference/halabja/halabja1.asp

GO TO THIS WEB SITE, THEN WE WILL TALK ABOUT " JUSTICE "

and ps whats with the threaten stuff girls ???

by the way
a major victory today for the 9-11 victims

PLEASE NOTE SADDAM HUSSEIN NAMED AS A DEFENDANT

NEW YORK - A federal judge Wednesday awarded nearly $104 million in damages to the families of two victims of the Sept. 11 attacks, finding the plaintiffs had provided some evidence that Iraq provided support to Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida.
Judge Harold Baer outlined the damages against bin Laden, the Taliban and Saddam Hussein

Yaksun:

You ask some very pointed questions, and they provoke good discussions. The last 2 "wars" are in no way representative of how bad things could get. Some 21st C. military models envision the demise of "global war" and see future military actions as a series of smaller, quite likely one-sided engagements - very much like starting small burns to prevent a large forest fire, or venting steam from a boiler to keep the pressure constant.

I think what just happened in the UN was a warning of things to come. When one nation becomes too powerful, other nations band together to oppose it. We can't let that stop us from doing what is right, but we need to watch our backs. And we need to ask ourselves, how many American lives do we want to expend to be the world's policemen?

If another world war is unavoidable, then so be it. But the sheer horror of WW I and II is not something we should repeat if we can possibly avoid it. I still believe that diplomacy is the first resort, and war should be employed only when all else has failed. In other words, war is diplomacy by other means.

PS
to all the scrapple gang
my home boyz !!! thank you for your support
stand proud
stand tall
America =justice
justice has prevailed

LilKimIl:

How come Bambi always has all the fun???

Yaksun,
Could you imagine how much that pilot was sweating when he landed on the carrier with the President? Makes me laugh to think how nervous he was!

I agree that we are to take out this axis of evil. Why stop now? I think we need a breather and figure out where the next TD pass will go. Go to www.coxandforkum.com and look at the political cartoon called "your attention please" it rings true about what you say yaksun.

TO
YUKSUN
J-LIBERAL

9-11 trial judgment MAY 7, 2003

WHAT DOES SADDAM HUSSEIN HAVE TO DO WITH 9-11 HERES YOUR ANSWER;

PLEASE NOTE SADDAM HUSSEIN NAMED AS A DEFENDANT

NEW YORK - A federal judge Wednesday awarded nearly $104 million in damages to the families of two victims of the Sept. 11 attacks,

finding the plaintiffs had provided some evidence that { Iraq } provided support to Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida.
Judge Harold Baer outlined the damages against bin Laden, the Taliban and { Saddam Hussein }

got it.... any questions.... good..case closed
nah nah nah nah nah nah I win I win nah nah
am I an as*h*le yes I am.. but I never ever lose

Attentioning here to,
Imperialist,running, is yellow and the scrapplemask dog Cassandra which it operates. Like you health the hatchet has always known remainder. I possess two special nucleus missles of those your names.

p.s. Do you of the casserole make what kind of type?

I (of the casserole) make only the best imperialist running yellow pig-dog scrapplemask oppressor-of-the-poor-downtrodden-worker/slave-Bush-conspiracy variety. Of this I can assure you.

Scrapplemask??? I dam* near died laughing...

Announcement:

I have been persuaded by the silver-tongued eloquence of LilKimIl to renounce my misguided fascist/capitalist Straussian ideology and embrace my fellow workers who labor under the cruel tyranny of the evil Pig-Dog Bush. Finally I am one with my true spiritual brothers and sisters in the Workers Paradise that is the People's Republic of California.

I will now donate all my worldly goods to Comrade Maxine Waters for reparations payments and devote myself to laboring for the Good of the People. But first I must go and shoot my parents for deluding me with their mad talk of property rights and personal responsibility.

Lil Kim Il??....
tell us about your grandpa Men Tal Lee Il???? He must be proud that you favor him and his son so.
**********************************

Cassandra! You almost fell out of the pedestal I had built for you with your uncertainty about the spelling of "occasions"!....BUT with all your other brilliant, well informed, level headed posts....it ain't no thang now! (:~})

As for your rhyme?
Its a perfectly acceptable rhyme:
a redneck
a big threat.
In songwriting its what's called a "feminine" rhyme.
{Which means women can do that but men are not allowed!){JUST KIDDING about the last part)..................................

Gurrrl-----Evrrytyme I reeds yur posts I be feelun' lyke I neeed to git me-un's bak to skool, starrt alll ovur agin and git me a hole nuuu edjewmuckashun.
Pleez doan't shooot yer mammie and pappie. They dun good!! (:~})

Yaksun,
A thought or two for you to ponder.

The actual military prowess of N Korea may take a bit more prepartory work for our military planners to sort out a course of action and requisition resources.

We might be able to accomplish our ends there without war,unlike Iraq.

We have yet to go to war with N.Korea-- it does not mean it won't or can't happen -- it just means not right this "second" of world history.

PS-- Bambi Stokes aint a liberal, tho she fakes it quite well, his is a well crafted sarcastic satire of an intellectually untenable standing - much like scrappleface

Hey LilKimIl,
You say you have a missle pointed at my house? You don't know what is actually going to happen to you. Be advised. Love Ya'.

Hey JP-

Isn't a little late for due process?

-jlib

Hey JP-

Isn't a little late for due process?

-jlib

Yaksun, like the stickers on the tractor trailors read-call us if you see this vehicle operated in an unsafe manner or have a compliment. I've made the complaints, now I will gladly send my compliments. Your last several posts were well-thought, well-reasoned arguments. we may not agree, but I can see and accept your position.

As to North Korea, I agree with you. I think our problem there is that when we attacked Iraq we knew Saddam would have no support. Unfortunately, an attack against North Korea will bring them assistance from China. Do we really want to just jump into that fire, or is it better to work it out first, and get the Chinese on our side as to NKs nuclear weapons. If we convince the Chinese that nuclear weapons in the control of Il jung threaten the Chinese as much as the rest of the world, they may support us or may even take him out themselves. You notice how we've laid the problem of the the Chinese and South Korea?

LF Cat:

....what?...huh? Where am I??? I had a dream that I was at a seance and somehow my spiritual essence merged with that of some person called Janeane Garofalo. All of a sudden I had the strange urge to watch naked people on floats burn American flags in NYC. I even found a "Bush is Hitler" poster under my bed when I woke up this morning...(shudder)

I hope I didn't do or say anything strange (or mis-spell any words) while I was under the influence.

FWIW: I agree wholeheartedly with Darth Chef: China scares the ^&*%$ out of me. We need to think long and hard (and make sure of their intentions) before we do anything to stir up that ant pile. At least until we're ready and have exhausted all other alternatives.

Darth: You're a good guy, and I DO respect your opinion. Sorry for coming across as a jerk at times. Some of the other posters at various times lack civility. I guess I just jump in expecting to be savaged and go from there. I am trying to improve my technique. Heck, if I didn't care what folks here thought, I wouldn't come at all!

So, what I'd really like to know from you, as a brother in the profession, is what you think of the appearance of impropriety with Halliburton, Perle, etc. (When I ask this, bear in mind that I realize full well that Democrats can be just as sleazy if not more so.) Proper? Not?

Justin: That pilot was sh***** bricks!

jp: Yes, Saddam was named a defendant. Refer to danjo's post in the thread regarding Edwards reforming the legal profession. He correctly notes that anyone can sue anyone. I could name you in a lawsuit. Of course, you can then ask to be dismissed as a perty. Its then up to me to prove you belong in the case. I'm guessing that Saddam didn't bother to file a motion to dismiss. He was probably busy being dead. ;-) I'm not too sanguine about their chances of recovery, unfortunately.

Fr. Guido: I understand. I jus contend that every days delay in neutralizing Kim risks the production of REAL WMD.

Back soon,

yaksun

Cassandra (and Darth): China concerns me very much. There's a reason I've been studying Mandarin intensively for over 3 years.

yak

Cassandra- great post about supporting and getting respect for and from the troops- they are the ones that lay it all on the line so we can 'solve' the world's problems here!!!

I heard on talk radio this am- someone brought up the point that the honor guard was never close in clinton's photo ops- and they begrudgingly saluted him. Compared to a quick, crisp salute (if that is possible with saluting-quick and crisp that is) for President Bush????

Don't watch much TV- even though we have it in York Co, PA!!! Plus viewing Clinton (any of the 3) created instantaneous nausea!!!

Anyone ever notice that?

Yaksun, et al.
I agree that we need to stop terrorism and those countries that support in ANY manner!!! You cannot reason with a terroristÖ. Death is their only deterrent!!! But we must proceed with caution and insight!!! I am all for guns ëa-blazingí and walking out proudly as the smoke clears!!!

hrdlordi:

All I know is that even we lowly wives were warned about criticizing or circulating jokes about the Cmdr. in Chief during the Clinton administration. It was the longest 8 years of my life. I've heard the story about the honor guard not rendering proper salutes to Clinton (and don't know if it is true or not). But I hope not.

I would like to think that, as professionals, they would do their job to the highest standard regardless of their personal feelings. They are supposed to be saluting the office, not the man. But perhaps there is an extra "snap" to the salute when you really mean it, n'est pas? :)

- La Casserole (who called me that originally - was it you, Yaksun?)

Was not insinuating they were 'slacking' off- just not enthusiastic!!! The response I gave during adolescence to my mom when I knew if I didnít- it was going to be very BAD for me!!

Cassandra: Alas, I cannot claim credit for "La Casserole", altho I kinda like it. Its certainly nicer than some names I've been called. :-)

hrdlordi (so many letters to remember ;-)): Amen.

yaksun

Yaksun, as you know, the people who make our laws insert enough loop holes so they can continue to reap teh benefits of their personal interests. In Maryland the legislature is part time and made up of attorneys. The Chairman of the House judiciary Committee is a defense attorney and will never allow a law out of committee that will affect his private practice. The President of the Senate is also a defense attorney and will only allow laws to pass that will benefit his practice. Having only the evidence presented by innuendo from the medai, I thin a lot of people at Halliburton and several other corporations could be proesecuted. The same way I felt Hillary was involved in insider trading, I believe was. But if you know something because of your daya-to-day activities, are you prohbitied on acting on that information? The securities laws, alot like tax law, are full of exceptions and loop holes. I was the sort of proescutor that would still take a case to trial because I believe the victims have the same right to a day in court tas the defendant. I don't care what their party affiliation is, a thief is a thief, a con man is a con man, a lowlife is a lowlife. Kill them all and let god sort them out.

"Couldn't they reply that they only did the same trying to take down our World Trade Center and our Pentagon, arguably legitimate stategic targets, and our 3000 civilians are colateral from that effort?"
J-Lib, your trying to justify these attacks makes me sick. Do you not understand that there is good and evil in the world?

Darth- I suppose many of the jokes about lawyers are merited!!! It is a good 'racket'- create your own system and language, make it exclusive and it is needed at some point by everyone!!!

More power to you!!! Keep up the good fight!!! Doing 'right' is always the best option!!! I believe the term that was used to describe it years ago was integrity....

Attentioning here to,
Imperialist,running, is yellow and the scrapplemask dog Cassandra which it operates. I today like you greatly. I now possessing the excessive nucleus missle mean this. Can you propose another target because of me? I can give reputation in order to designate your parent because of you as goal.

All wordly the commodity and the responsibility which are excluded.

As for the p.s. your casserole you sound tastily. Perhaps, you and me, and to have casserole lunch once upon a time it is possible with the Maxine Water of the comrade.

Attentioning here to,
Imperialist,running, is yellow and the scrapplemask dog Family Cat which it operates. I try to brag about my nice incestuous ancestor very. Because of the thing which is asked concerning my nice grandfather appreciate in you.

C-Money

I believe josh(j-lib) is what you would classify as believing in moral relativism- he doesn't practice or condone it, but who is he to question the desires/actions of a fellow human being.

Life is great without absolutes.... 'I' have no restrictions in life- but I may need a good lawyer- no of any!!!

Darth:

I suppose in the case of Halliburton and its subs, the case can be made that there are in fact few firms in the world qualified to actually do the work involved, and that many of them were eliminated by the politics of their nations (Fr., Gr. Russ.). Further, better that Amer. co's should bring in the bucks than others. I'm just naive enough to think that it reeks when we use our military to knock stuff down and then turn around and pass out fat ($7B) contracts to our friends to build it back upa again. Talk about creating a market!

My problem with Perle is more political. I resent the notion that our Middle Eastern foreign policy seems to be "Made in Israel". (No, I'm not anti-Semitic). Like Justin, I wish we could develop an alternative fuel source so we didn't need stupid Arab oil. Then if they wanted to spend all of eternity killing themselves off, thats TFB.

Blah, blah, blah - my 2cents.

Speaking of state legislatures, you wouldn't believe some of these revenue bills I get to review. You'd think these people didn't know the state (Ill.), like many others, had a $1B plus deficit. Everybody's got their own pet credit. The irresponsibility wears one down sometimes.

And the anti-gun bills? DOn't even get me started.

CU

yaksun

First of all I think our friend Ooglay has been reincarnatated as LilKimIl, or as D.miller calls Il, the Chia Dictator!

I agree about the NKorea/China think. We need to tread easy on that one before we go in with guns blazing.

Yaksun,
I don't agree with a lot that you have to say, but I see where you are coming from. Thank you for making me think about my position on subjects, I like yourself like to think things through and not just take a side and not know why.

on the Saluting thing. I read an email (forward of course so the veracity of it who knows) and it said that the soldiers saluted properly to Clinton. They only have to salute when he goes by and it is up to them if they want to continue the salute to his back. Under clinton they chose not to, but to Bush yes. Something like that, but who knows?

J-Lib,
I am rather bemused by the tolerance you show. Not love, tolerance. In one sentence, you have said that conservatives care more about material things than they do starving women and children of color.

Okay, so tell me; During the famine in Ethiopia in the eighties, WHO donated money and food to TRUSTED
relief organizations? Many churches in the US.

Somalia, Rwanda, Congo, etc. have all benefited from the VOLUNTARY donations of white conservatives. During Clintoon's Reign of Error, we had a massive tax increase that was retroactively enforced, unconstitutionally. I pay my INVOLUNTARY Medicare and Medicaid tax (thank you Hillary)so that women and children can get help with WIC and food stamps and medical care.

You talk about the US being one of the last nations to abandon slavery. I beg to differ. Any country that has intense socialist programs cuts deep into the pockets of their constituents to pay for them, and uses the threat of imprisonment and arms to back it up. Is that a form of slavery? Yes. Just try NOT paying your taxes here. See what happens.

John Malkovich, who does not live in Paris but does live in Provence, is moving AWAY because the tax burden there is so heavy: 65% of his income.

We are paying the government to feed and clothe and render medical care to men, women and children of color...as well as paying tithes to our own churches to do the same. I voluntarily give at least 10% of my increase to my church because I know it will be treated as belonging to God and to serve His purpose.

When I am FORCED into paying the government to handle charity, how much of that is actually turned over to those who need it? And the government acts as if it is theirs to take.

I think you had better stop and look at your blanket accusations.

YAKSUN POSTED

Yes, Saddam was named a defendant. Refer to danjo's post in the thread regarding Edwards reforming the legal profession. He correctly notes that anyone can sue anyone. I could name you in a lawsuit. Of course, you can then ask to be dismissed as a perty. Its then up to me to prove you belong in the case. I'm guessing that Saddam didn't bother to file a motion to dismiss. He was probably busy being dead. ;-) I'm not too sanguine about their chances of recovery, unfortunately.
__________________________

May 7, 2003
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
----------------------------X
RAYMOND ANTHONY SMITH, as
Administrator of the Estate of George
Eric Smith, deceased; and
KATHERINE SOULAS, in her own right,
on behalf of her minor children, and as
Executrix of the Estate of Timothy Soulas,
deceased

Plaintiffs, 01 Civ. 10132 (HB)
-v-

THE ISLAMIC EMIRATE OF
AFGHANISTAN, THE TALIBAN,
AL QAIDA/ISLAMIC ARMY,
SHIEKH USAMAH BIN-MUHAMMAD
BIN-LADEN a/k/a Osama Bin Laden,
SADDAM HUSSEIN, THE REPUBLIC
OF IRAQ

Defendants.

ORDER AND OPINION

The existence of a highly secure military facility in Iraq where non-Iraqi fundamentalists (e.g., Egyptians and Saudis) are trained in airplane hijacking and other forms of terrorism. Through satellite imagery and the testimony of three Iraqi defectors,

17 plaintiffs demonstrated the existence of this facility, called Salman Pak

18 Salman Pak, which has an airplane but no runway. The defectors also stated that these fundamentalists were taught methods of hijacking using utensils or short knives. Plaintiffs contend it is farfetched to believe that Iraqi agents trained fundamentalists in a top-secret facility for any purpose other than to promote terrorism.

19 However, the opinion testimony of the plaintiffs' experts is sufficient to meet plaintiffs' burden that Iraq collaborated in or supported bin Laden/al Qaeda's terrorist acts of September 11.

a sufficient basis for a reasonable jury to draw inferences which could lead to the conclusion that Iraq provided material support to al Qaeda and that it did so with knowledge and intent to further al Qaeda's criminal acts
******************
A Motion to dismiss would fail, and ps these people are not "anyone" they are the direct victims of 911

j-lib posted
Hey JP-Isn't a little late for due process?

Sept 20, 2002 was the second conference hearing, Gee yah think a year or two notice..is enough

LilKimIl:

My parents live in...yes...THAT'S THE TICKET...Berkeley, California. Tomorrow I am liking you greatly if you are set them up the bomb in your nucleus missel which you operate.

My parents also have summer homes in Hollywood, California and often stay with Barbara Streisand in her mountain home. Maybe I can just denounce my parents to the Proletariat Workers Committee and you could please explode Barbara Streisand as an alternate target?

I hear ya hrdlordi.

jp: Interesting. However, I do not recall any of this being cited by the Admin. as the basis for the conflict. Feel free to enlighten me. Surely the UN would have been persuaded by the uncontested findings of a US judge(?)

I don't dispute what you show. I would maintain that it is easier to "prove" allegations which the opposing party does not refute. However, if there should be proven to be a connection between Saddam and those al quaeda SOBs who killed our brothers and sisters, I will gladly come back and say I'm pleased to be proven wrong!

BTW, you didn't get back to me about your concern for the 800,000 slain Iranians in the 80s. While they were being gassed, Rumsfeld was visiting, supporting, and legitimizing Saddam on behalf of Pres. Reagan. Yet, Iran at the time was pledging death to "The Great Satan" USA. You can't have it both ways. Are you that much in support of the extremist, mullah-ruled state of Iran (which, despite all of its own oil, is right now trying to buy nuclear technology from our "friends" the Russians)? Are you a sympathizer with the second member of the Axis of Evil? Do you mind if I'd like to see proof that Saddam didn't use most/all of his bio/chemical arsenal up on that occasion? Are you going to object if GWB DOES attack Iran and kill Iranians using WMD like the JDAM? At some point, you're going to have to choose which side you're really on.

Finally, given your concern for the downtrodden victims of maniacal dictators who possess WMD (some more than others), why are you not frothing at the mouth to attack North Korea? Are North Koreans less entitled to the benefits of US-styled democracy? Have you not read about the slave labor and torture camps of Kim Il Jong? Will taking him to court provide adequate compensation for residents of Seoul, Tokyo, or Honolulu/Seattle if he drops a nuclear-tipped Taepo Dong on them in a fit of pique? I await your reply and guidance.

Justin: Thanks. Thinking about issues, rather than just swallowing whole whatever the Gov't. and the media tells one, is good exercise and, I submit, good for democracy.

later

yaksun

yukan
where do you dream up your posts, who said anything about the "administration" or a conflict issue, and reading your post I can only come to one conclusion you support Saddam, as with all the liberal statements its always "AMERICA" that is wrong its always "AMERICAN POLICY " that is { illegal } its never the mass murderers, I have no further post on the matter

about the 800,00 Iranians that was to show Saddam has killed more Muslims than any other human in the 20th century...

yaksun posted
" Feel free to enlighten me."
_____________________

sorry no one can enlighten a dim bulb

you can now go back to writting your fatwas for your leaders of the jihad.. I am sure they missing you...it is so evident who you really support

see yah on the front lines ...oh sorry I mean running from the front lines

jp: I thought you said you had no further post on the matter. You should take your own advice and quit while you're behind.

y

Well, this original posting comes off as ironic only if you believe that Hussein was actively involved in international terrorism. While Saddam never hesitated domestically to use alliances with mutually antagonistic terrorist groups to keep his own people in check, the jury's still out on whether or not he actively supported the export of terrorism. The only thing even close was his offer of cash to the families of suicide bombers in Israel--something the Saudi government has also done.

As far as the dangerous nuclear material goes: spent nuclear fuel without a way to reprocess it is only dangerous if you use it in a dirty bomb--or to tip your missles so they can penetrate tanks (depleted uranium is not harmful to your health, and neither was smoking). At least while there were inspections there was the possibility of keeping tabs on it. Once the looting started it was about as secure as the Russian WMD arsenal. Nonetheless, aside from some badly forged documents there is still no proof that there was an active nuclear program in Iraq.

JP:

Before you declare absolute victory based upon a lower court ruling, take another look at the wording.

"(CBS) A federal judge Wednesday ordered Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein and others to pay early $104 million to the families of two Sept. 11 victims, saying there is evidence ñ though meager - that Iraq had a hand in the terrorist attacks. (My emphasis)

"In his ruling, Baer concluded that lawyers for the two victims "have shown, albeit barely ... that Iraq provided material support to bin Laden and al-Qaida" and collaborated in or supported al-Qaida's Sept. 11 attacks."

While I don't think anyone is going to jump up and challenge this ruling just yet, the judge seems to to be sending a signal that this verdict might not withstand appeal based upon the evidence presented.

jp: I'm still here. Where are you, my courageous friend?

WMD (What Mass Destruction?)

yaksun