First?

Second!

So, is this a parody of Bush or of our news media?

Someone please give me a good reason why we should get involved in yet another third-world ... civil war.

"All the people are dying!"
Wah. Big freaking deal.

Are there any vital U.S. interests in Liberia? Will this destabalize a region in which there are vital U.S. interests? What resources, critical to the U.S. economy, are present in Liberia, or the region?
If there aren't any, then tell them, "Your problem, you deal with it."

'Cause the minute we go in and take out the bad guys, the civilian population will start to protest, snipe at the troops, and generally turn into a bunch of [jerks] who are convinced that every problem they've ever had was a direct result of American interference.

Radio Guy...apparently, by your question, turns out that it is a parody about people like you. :-)

The fact that the UN is nearly demanding we go in is reason enough to stay out.

I gotta disagree. I think its important for us to be involved considering this is a nation we helped create. just my 2 cents tho!

And the Marines once again will be the tip of the invasion spear, or in this case, the "Q-Tip" to remove the quagmire.

Darrell, I don't think many hear would disagree with you. We just think it is ironic that countries (and the UN) are nearly demanding we "invade" without there being an external, strategic reason. Liberia is not a threat to anyone. It is an internal civil war. In Uganda, the UN sat around debating instead of interrupting that civil war, and upwards of 1 million people died. Now they feel stirred up enough to react? (and yet their reaction is that WE do it, not them).

Since I can remember, Africa has been in trouble. Nothing given, thrown, forced or otherwise done has any effect. Always starving, always killing each other, always in turmoil. Might as well throw our money and troops down a rat hole.

OIL found in Liberia, Bush Commits Troops.

France has contracts worth billions of dollars for UN-sanctioned, illegal oil and weapons programs: US Commits Troops to further devastate the French economy.

John F. Kerry, who looks French and is a VietNam vet, opposes the action.

Remember when liberals used to protest against US support of "brutal dictators"?? Remember when the protest du jour was either against US involvement in South Africa or Central America? So now the US has freed a people from a brutal dictator, and what do the liberals say?
"it's about time you righted a wrong"??
"what took you so long - he even had prisons for children"???
"the abhorant use of systematic rape and torture has finally been brought to an end"????
"the wives and children of dissidents will no longer fear for their lives when their fathers, brothers or uncles speak the truth"?????

Remember, the ultimate goal is not Iraqi oil or freedom for the Iraqi people. The aim in Iraq is to prove to islamo-wackos that the USA will no longer tolerate attacks on Americans. We will reform the Arab world to remove the danger of fundamentalist islam. But this goal will require many steps. Remove the Taliban from Afghanistan - check. Remove Saddam from Iraq - check. Display awesome military might, even if EUnichs disagree - check. Install non-dictator, non-totalitarialism style government in the middle of the Arab world - we're getting there. Convince Iran, Syria and the House of Saud that supporting terrorists doesn't pay - we're getting there too.

Keep up the good work, W. If the liberals keep whining, let them eat yellowcake.

Tom, I think there's a whole lot of truth in what you said. Unfortunately, one of the things currently happening is the media is seemingly trying to turn support away from Iraq by reporting (even Fox News has begun doing this!) "Another US Soldier Killed in Iraq", etc. They do not show the support we have in much of Southern Iraq by the Shiites, or in Northern Iraq with the Kurds. Yes, the middle is the most dangerous area, and yes, deaths are very much expected and are very unfortunate. But they make it seem as if this is all Iraq, when it's not.

the other scott:

i could not agree with you more.
It seems like the entire (left-wing?) media has gone berzerk

Tom how many Americans did the Iraqis kill before we invaded?

Arthur Roww,

Well, do you want the truth? There were links to Iraq in the original bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993. There are very real links, whether direct or not, between Saddam and Al Qaeda. You tell us, since it sounds like you are more enlightened the the rest of us.

Which links other scott?
Saddam killed radical islamists in Iraq,the ones he didnt kill are coming at us now.
Please inform me of the relationship between Iraq and bin-laden,the latter refered to Hussein as an infidel in his last tape.
Try as you may there is no link,if there was it wouldve been exploited by the president.

I thought we were goping over there to declare, "Experiment Over", and bring everyone back as slaves again.

Hmmm...The Other Scott argues that Fox should not report when "Another US Soldier Killed in Iraq"...any moment now I expect one of the Scrapple-readers from the military to administer a severe reponse...

Arthur Rowe,

Please explain to the rest of us infidels what Salman Pak was used for.

Daisy,

Despite your sweet-sounding name, I detect a strong vein of sarcasm in your comment. I believe you may have misinterpreted my comment. It wasn't that Fox or any other new organization should not write about it, but it should not be breaking news, it should not be the only focus.

When was the last new report on the progress made in rebuilding infrastructure in areas other than Baghdad? Or about the support the Marines in Southern Iraq have enjoyed?

I agree with other scott,there should be a media blackout,100% media blackout.
The military in this country loses home support on a daily basis when the casualty roll calls come in.
The last thing people need to see is an American flag on the side of the road covering up an 18 year old casualty.
Ok other scott
Tell us who salman pak is,I assume no relation to se ri pak and salman rushdie.

All goods points, The Other Scott. I admit was just hoping to see some good flames.

Seriously, though, I'm not sure I'd blame it entirely on the "liberal media," as some like to do -- CNN, Fox, t.v. news will lead with whatever's simple and bloody.

I don't expect thoughtful analysis from t.v. news on any topic, whether it's support for our actions in Iraq or health care policy.

Big Time Sublime: thank you for the politicaly incorrect, utterly hilarious comment.

Boston Herald has reported theres a decent chance that Saddams little angels have been captured in Iraq.
This is what the dr. ordered.

Arthur Rowe,

You misled us into thinking you were an much more enlightened intellectual than you apparently are. Salman Pak is not a who, but a where.

Arthur Rowe,

BTW, do a google search for it. You have heard about google, haven't you?

Go ahead other scott,please continue.

Daisy,

I have been in the military and have led troops under fire. I won't pretend to speak for "our troops" they are an eclectic and diverse bunch, but I will tell you that they do not seek noteriety or press for their actions. They operate mainly for the great responsibility conferred upon them in exchange for total loyalty, honor, and commitment to the ideals of our nation. As much as it is proper to recognize casualties of war, they should, NEVER, be used as pawns to push one agenga or antoher.

BTS

Arthur
I believe its a chemical weapons dump a bit north of Bagdad.
Perhaps I am in the dark here as well,whats the connection between a chemical weapons dump and a truck bomb?
The cleric who organized the 1st wtc attack has been in jail in jersey since.
We grabbed up his son in pakistan I believe shortly after 9-11.This group was called the Islamic Brotherhood and was made up mostly of Egyptians,they merged with Al-Qaeda in 98 I believe.
The original wtc bombers had visions of taking down the lincoln tunnel the g.w. bridge and other landmarks.
I am not being a wise guy but I have heard nothing of any link between Hussein and Bin-Laden.
Sublime
hows the count coming?

Does Art Row seriously believe that Saddam and his foreign policy people knew nothing about September 11? I recall that C. Hitchens went to Baghdad to interview Abu Nidal, the most famous terrorist before Bin Laden, and he had an office in Baath party HQ...Oppose Bush and his policy if you want, but don't intentionally play dumb about Saddam's far reaching terrorist connections. It is a perfectly reasonable supposition that some of Saddam's French & German oil revenue went to someone in Al Qaeda.

Lance Armstrong crashes and comes back to dust his competition yesterday...just like an American to do something like that.

Arthur Rowe...it is unfortunate, but my lengthy reply will have to wait until this evening..I must now go to work to pay my taxes (and possibly yours as well). Do not fear, though, I will reply with the links both to WTC 1993 and 2001. (And for kicks, I might explore for you the possible connections to Oklahoma City. Remember John Doe #2?)

Mike G.,

I've stopped counting, no mater how many trials, the data remained constant and this homogeneity rendered it statistically insignificant. I am, however, keeping that picture to scare the children.

Sublime:

Wow. Would I be rude if I ask whay you did in the military and where you led troops under fire?

Navy, Central America (and that's all you get!) Thanks for asking!

BTS

Was that some type of dig other scott?
Because I dispute the claim of Bagdad and Hussein being involved in 9/11 means I dont pay taxes?
Tim McVeigh,Gulf war vet,Irish Catholic from upstate New York,got involved with the right wing,got himself the hot shot.
Terry Nichols,after pleading guilty to murder for life in prison,is about to be dragged back to Ok City for another trial and probably will be put to death.
Now I have heard about an Iraqi link from a survivors family but never put any credence into it.McVeigh went to hell rather than admit an Iraqi involvement,Nichols is probably going to do the same.
I believe McVeighs council was Steve Jones,he got the guy in Ruby Ridge off after he shot a fed.
I think we'd all agree hes a good atty.
He never makes mention of Iraq in McVeighs trial.

If only Tim McVeigh had you on his defense team...

The navy was in central America? Where? Kansas? How did they get there?

Homer,

D'ohn't you remember? We patrolled the river by the Nuclear Power Plant for Mr. Burns.

Some of the drunkenest sailors I ever did see were in Idaho Falls, working at the Navy Base in the desert outside of town. A nuclear sub reactor training base, as I recall. Odd to see them so far inland, though it made sense.

Lt John Connors was my brothers c/o before he got killed at the Panama City airport that December evening in 1988.
Met the kid a couple of times and always had a feeling this is the way he wanted it to be.
Dont think his parents had this in mind when they buried him at 24,25 years old.
Sublime

glad you have the count down,had I known you were former military I wouldve given you some other task to master as you obviously have mastered cadence.

Sacre Coure MON DIEU
Le tower Eifel shes on fire...
REMEMBER YVES,JEAN,MARCEL AND HAMIDOU
WOMAN AND CHILDREN 1ST

the other scott -

when posting your long reply to Arthur, two points to remember:
1) don't forget the Tennessee judge, who was sent over to Iraq with about a dozen other legal experts to help create a legal system, who was given all sorts of docs listing people of influence in the Saddam regime, such as Abid Al-Karim Muhamed Aswod, assigned to the Iraq embassy in Pakistan, ''responsible for the coordination of activities with the Osama bin Laden group.''
http://tennessean.com/nation-world/archives/03/06/34908297.shtml?Element_ID=34908297

2) never have a battle of wits with an unarmed man

I'm still waiting for a good reason to get involved in Liberia.

As Homer Simpson should have posted:

Mmmmm 'yellow cake'

Arthur -

re: your comment "Tom how many Americans did the Iraqis kill before we invaded?"

WTC I
USS Cole
Kenyan embassy bombings
WTC II
Pentagon
Flight 93

My opinion is that Saddam was connected to all these terrorist events, either through direct financing, training or logistics support. I also believe that in an age of WMD, one can not wait for the mushroom cloud of proof before taking pro-active measures to protect OUR security.

Tom do you offer any proof of this other than a paranoid driven tirade of nonsense?
Why dont you look over at the Saudis if you want to point a finger at someone who is in fact responsible for this.
Pakistan has had a nuclear bomb since 1997 and perhaps beforehand,they and Saudi were the only 2nations that recognized the Taliban.
They are also our 2 most important allies in the region.Please tell me why we are fighting a war in Iraq when 15 of the 19 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia and the other 4(egypt and kuwait i believe) were from other allies of ours?
Anyone who has followed this area since 1968 knows that the religious mullahs hated Hussein with a passion,he killed more of the xenophobes over there than George Bush dreamed of killing.
For Gods sake even our own intelligence,as confused and dependant on the English as it is,doesnt have the cayones to make such a moronic statement.
Opinions are like,well you know what theyre like Tom,you are entitled to believe what you like but when you wake up click your heels 3 times and you may in fact wake up in Kansas.

Do you also have a link between Saddam and the beltway sniper??I also heard he was in Utah and took part in the Elizabeth Smart kidnapping...
Any truth to that?

You are talkin out of your butt because your mouth knows better.

Don't forget USS STARK (FFG-31), attacked by an Iraqi Jet in '87, killing 35 sailors.

The uss stark doesnt count because they apologized to ronnie reagan and at the time they were our ally.
Anyone notice all these mass graves theyre digging up are circa 1990 and before?
Of course they have WMD and when we eventually find them we can explain to the world why they say
DOW CHEMICAL
MADE IN THE USA
talk about revisionist historians.

It is true, I still want that spry little Lizzie Smart in my Harem. Bring her to me now! Fools I kill you like a dog.

So why did Saddam pay Islamofascists to kill Jews with his sliding scale (for injuries sustained) starting at $25,000 per successful "operation" in Israel?

To suggest their is no connection between Saddam and Islamic terrorism is to forget how we in WWII, the allies, joined forces with MOTHER RUSSIA against Nazi Germany. What praytell, did we have in common with the Soviets other than a common enemy?

Billy Graham and I couldn't disagree more on most things but when it is time to fight the fascist of Islam, with all due disfigured irony, we'll be on the same side.

Saddam and Osama don't have to be friendly to have the same enemies. Nor do they have to relent on their struggles against each other once the common foe, the infidel, is vanquished.

BTW, have you got your Infidel Life Insurance Policy paid up?

That ain't no joke, ahmen brother.

I kinda take offense to the idea that the STARK doesn't count, but I won't get all apple pie and chevrolet over it. I don't know anyone who was killed on the STARK, but I do know a guy who was peeing off the side of the ship when the Iraqi (French made) missiles hit.

Ooglay! Now your top dog in the next generation of Husseins. How does it feel to the apple...uh..pomegranite of your father's eye?

Cosmic
Queer Noor of Jordan recently had a fund raiser for the Palestinians.
Saudi Arabia,our favorite buddy in the area,sends Hamas families money when they do up a bus or discoteque.
Egypt,who we sponsor with over a billion a year,has a fund they set up for the Palestinian homeless.
Now do I need to get into Kuwait(remember how we liberated them),Tunisia,Libya et.al....

Islamic Fundamentalism started a long time ago and finally exploded in Iran,we countered that with Saddam Hussein in an 8 year war that took over 1 million lives.
I agree,islamic fundamentalism needs to be checked and checked hard but my question is how do you do this without creating ""new martyrs"" to be worshipped..

Osama and his crowd took our aid to fight Russia. He then took aid from Iraq to fight the West, best represented by the US. He can preach about his version of sin, but only a naive fool believes that he wouldn't team up with Iraq or any other group if it helped him against his current target.

Another lie: the US was not the biggest supporter of Iraq, even when we were on friendlier terms. Only about 4% of all weapons had US origins. Most came from, surprise, France and Russia.

Mr. Rowe: I am confused. Are you suggesting that we go to war with Saudi Arabia/ Egypt/ Kuwait? Or are you just complaining that whatever we do, you can find a more deserving target, but we really shouldn't be doing anything?

Really, the problem with this "war" is that there is no official nation sponsor. Every nation has some extreme islamists. If citizenship provided the enemy, we could be at war with everyone, including ourself.

SRG,

I am more like date palm tree, erect, stout, and ready to party! Go Ooglay, Go Ooglay, all the colored girls say!!! Bring me more wine or I shoot your other foot too! Partay Oooohglay style, Jihad Jihad.

I am suggesting that we should do all of them or none of them.
Saudi has the blood of 9-11 on their hands,no question about it.This isnt speculation,this is pretty much understood world wide.
Iraq,though despicable,vile and treachorous has no American blood on there hands.
KJ
Now I am confused
Are you saying that Iraq was involved in 9-11,the cole,the afrcican embassys and the Lindbergh kidnapping?

News reports of the possible death of the Hussein Brothers, the Eiffel Tower on fire, it doesn't get much sweeter than this, -------or does it?

For my friends frenchy, max, ducksoup, french douche, here's a joke! Or IS it?

"An American tourist in London found himself needing to take a leak
something terrible. After a long search he just couldn't find any public
bathroom to relieve himself. So he went down one of the side streets to take
care of business. Just as he was unzipping, a London police officer showed
up. "Look here, old chap, what are you doing?" the officer asked. "I'm
sorry," the American replied, but I really gotta take a leak." "You can't do
that here," the officer told him. "Look, follow me."

The police officer led him to a beautiful garden with lots of grass, pretty
flowers, and manicured hedges. "Here," said the policeman, "whiz away." The
American tourist shrugged, turned, unzipped, and started relieving himself
on the flowers. "Ahhh," he said in relief. Then turning toward the officer,
he said, "This is very nice of you. Is this British courtesy?" "No,"
retorted the policeman. "It's the French Embassy."

Arthur,

Don't worry we'll do all of them, one at a time. Be patient, its in the works.

Beg to differ Mr Sublime but I do feel that our relationship with the Saudi's is permanent.
The losses suffered in the stock market after 9-11 had a lot to do with the Sauds pulling out their money because they were afraid of their assets being seized.
A ton of Saudi money was pulled out immediately after.
Egypt on the other hand???

Not too sure what to think about them,it seems the 1st man who really stuck out his neck for peace,one Anwar Sadat,was killed for it.
Mubarek has been in our pants ever since.

Mike,

When I say its in the works, the ball is in their court; change or BE changed.

Which brings to mind an old joke:

Is that Hosni Mubarek in your pants, or are you just happy to see me?

Bada bing, bada boom.

that last referred back to Mike G's post

Good one Cassandra.
Like your style Sublime,lots of change is needed over there.
May I open with the napalming of Paris for the 1st step in required change?
Ottawa would be 2nd just for giggles.

I love the logic of it all. If you can't do EVERYTHING, you shouldn't do ANYTHING. I disagree. You prioritize, and do what you believe is most effective - cost/benefit analysis, national interest, politics, etc. One can argue about the choices. But to say we shouldn't take one enemy out b/c we aren't taking them all out ignores a major economic situation unknown to most leftists: scarcity of resources.

Reports of the untimely death of Ooglay Hussein at the hands of the Infidels are a fantasy that is so far from reality so as to tickle the toes of the Sand Djinn. It is all lies, lies from lying liars who will burn from within, the bile of their stomachs boiling over onto their shoes which are used to beat them in humiliation. Allu Akbar! Saddam lives and bathes us in his greatness. (My resume available on MONSTER.COM)

Does the press latch on to idiotic nicknames like yellowcake just to keep Mark Russell stocked with material?

Please, in the name of God, can't we just all call it uranium? I've heard restaurants in Georgetown are adding "yellowcake" to their dessert menus.

Mike G.,

Instead of Napalming Paris, I had intended to use a "laser" to destroy select areas of the city until I was paid ONE MILLION DOLLARS. But Austin Powers found my "laser" a top the Eifel Tower and lit it on fire. At least the Tower burned for a while Muhahahahahah!!!!

Mike,

Its clear from the latest revision from the department of Free Speach and Clean Livin' the the counting references must stop.

Greyhawk, we all want to know if Ooglay was killed with his brothers...

Bob, thanks for the mug! 1.5x the caffiene and I'm just happy and hyper.

I once saw some yellowcake in a port-a-potty where I do number 1. It tasted yucky.

Yes dr evil I too dream of the day when the stars and stripes are flying high over the seine.
Dont like the French,dont like their rich,creamy sauces either.
I am rather fond of a decent Beaujolais with a prime rib but Australia is making an incredible run with some very tasty vintages leaving France more and more irrelevant daily.
Whats important here is they know where we are coming from ALL THE TIME.
ABC.....those were the letters my brother said to me at 1115am on 9-11 as he met up with his wife who worked at the WTC...
ABC
atomic
biological
chemical...
After the pentagon got hit,people began to counterattack immediately.
Make no mistake about it,Bush and Cheney were the initial voices of reason in the face of a very very upset military.
Perhaps if we simply a-bombed the Pakistan-Afghani border back in the fall of 2001 then this would end all pan-islamic upityism...
Al-qaida screwwed up..
You dont get away with killing American Generals while their secretarys are taking depositions...

I dont have the answers but wiping out France would answer one of them...

It has become apparant to me that this administration has not a interest in liberating from the powers of oppression, the people of Liberia because they are black. Were Liberia made up of rich white-folk, driving their Subarus amongst their white folk counterparts and voting for their rich white folk republicans, you can be a-SHURED! That this rich white republican white house would intervene in this country founded and liberated of its rich white oppressors.

Rev. Al,
If that were the demographic of Liberia, they wouldn't be having a civil war. They'd be too busy working, going to the country club, and watching the hired hands wax their SUVs.

It's the discriminatory distribution of wealth that keeps my brothers down. We should bring peace to the nation of Liberia and pay them the repirations they deserve!

They were manumitted and given a country. They already GOT their reparations. They screwed it up, and it's their problem to solve.

Tell you what, Rev. You want to be a president, then go to Liberia and be their president. You can even change the name to Sharptonia, or Tawania.

Watching you flouder about, trying to be a leader and statesman, would really give us a much-needed laugh.

Dear Ooglay - Sorry (not) to hear about your timely death. How's them virgins (snicker)?

Ah, gay Pari, the city of lights, ... and fires

Has the Maid of Lorraine begun afresh her assualt on Paris?

Some French chef use a little to much wine in his cooking?

Or did Jaque Jihad drop a (fire)bomb on the Parisians?

Random white guys sail to Africa
Off the coast they park
80 million slaves they take
Still swim that way the shark

To Liberia they send them back,
but refuse to help them when under attack.

Random white guys buy SUV's with pay they draw, Just because they follow the rule of law?

Reverends they will not abide, so the brothers still can't hit their stride.

Reparations they will not pay,
to the black or the gay!

The men in blue gun down our sons!
in a rage just for fun!

They sell their arms to the getto, to Liberians, to the het(er)o.

And now some random white guys war for oil, take the money, all the spoil.

And in America Jesse is abused,
his reign is fallin',
regime change has come,
Rev. Alfred now comes callin'.

Rule of law will crawl away,
the day of men is here I pray.

Arthur -

what next, will you start ranting "Bush lied, people died!"??? "No blood for oil!"???

You don't get it, do you? There's a long term strategy being played out here regarding fanatical islam. You think I'm a paranoid, delusional far right wing nut? All you have to do is listen to their mullahs. Read bin laden's own writings. Who is delusional one, the person who reads and listens to madmen who have attacked us five times, and believes their desire to kill all infidels, or the person who buries their head in the sand?

"we should do all of them or none of them."???
Now there's an intelligent, well thought out plan.

Osama never getting together with Saddam? The Nazi goal of aryan supremacy never seemed to bother the Japanese during WW2 - might the same thing have happened recently in the middle east?

"Tell us who salman pak is,I assume no relation to se ri pak and salman rushdie."

You are correct on your assumption, oh wise one, there is no relation whatsoever between salmon pak, se ri pak or salman rushdie.

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than post on ScrappleFace and remove all doubt.

Agreed!

I'm just curious why it is always America that should pay the reparations and not the African tribes who make money selling raided slaves to Arab slave traders, nor the descendants of those Arab slave traders.

In a similar vein, perhaps someone can explain to me why it was wrong for white colonists to buy slaves but apparently not wrong for Native Americans to keep both other Native Americans and captured white women and children as slaves?

Why it was cruel and barbaric for European settlers to displace Native Americans as they colonized this country, but not wrong for some Native American tribes to displace (PC term for murder, torture, drive off) less aggressive Native Americans from their lands as they migrated from place to place?

Why aren't American blacks (who apparently are still so sensitive to the corrosive effects of slavery) calling for an end to the enslavement of both blacks and white Christians that is still going on in Africa today and is perpetrated by black Africans?

Rev. Al, to paraphrase my main man Johnny Cochraine,

"If you don't make no sense,
It must be 'cause you is dense"

I think we should make it clear that we will take all people at their words when they threaten terroristic acts, threaten to trade WMD with terrorists or "bad" countries, threaten to use WMD on us or allies, or claim the desire harm the US or its allies with terror or military action.

If you make such a claim, be prepared for us to believe you, and to act accordingly.

Listening Lil Kim?

Answering Cassandra's fine questions:

The lighter your skin pigmentation, the more culpable you are.

The lighter your skin pigmentation, the more culpable you are.

The lighter your skin pigmentation, the more culpable you are. Besides, Prior Migrated Americans (a more accurate term for Native Americans) were "spiritual" and into "nature."

And that would help me how?

Or, you could just call all four answers "who has the deep pockets I might get my hands in."

Thank God I'm not a blonde - then I'd really be ridden with guilt.

I thought the topic at hand was Liberia, and the sooner we get ovwer there and bring all those run away slaves back the sooner we can get this economy moving.

Ooglay poster above is a poser. Real Ooglay is fine. Sends regards to all; he's currently doing work for the DNC. Expect further details soon.

The people of Mississippi support any communication from beyond the grave attributed to Strom Thurmond, and the country would be better off if everyone else did too.

Miss Sandy's songs get all the mail,
while the Reverend Alfred tries to make bail.
But the random white guys have become stale,
their policies will fail,
to their burning crosses with them by nail,
We have been to the mountain top
and now we will take the swale,

On the rule of law: America will exhale
(and history will afford the SUV no grand tale)
For now the rule of men (and Reverends) will prevail.

As for Johnny C. I say eat my dusty trail.

Carolinian, I was in Idaho Falls for a while...I certainly hope it wasn't me you saw there!

All others, especially Arthur Rowe, who are eagerly awaiting my post...well, I'm stuck at work still (no Arthur, it was just a generalized sarcastic remark--don't take everything so personally!!!), so it will be later tonight after my little ones get to sleep.

Ok, part 1: World Trade Center, 1993.

This will be a very brief synopsis of a single individual. While there is much more evidence of links with other people invloved, this individual is most apparent. I am not a conspiracy theorist. I am a realist. Put your self in Saddam's shoes (well, maybe right now is not such a good idea). Just after the first Gulf War, and you got your butt kicked majorly. You realize you can't match the U.S. is standard military warfare, so what's an angry despot to do? (well, we know one thing for sure in 1995: the attempted assassination of former President GHW Bush. That's another story, though. Isolated, that's the ticket!).

Alleged ìmastermindî Ramzi Yousef:
1. Entered the country under Iraqi passport in the name of Ramzi Yousef (odd, I know)
2. Fled after bombing using name of Abdul Basit Karim
3. Was captured in the Philippines in 1995, along with his passports and his laptop, which gave a lot on info to investigators.
4. Abdul Basit Karim was a Kuwaiti who disappeared when Iraq occupied Kuwait
5. If the two are indeed the same man, then, over the course of three years, he would have grown four inches (from five foot eight inches to six feet) in his twenties; (b) put on between 35 and 40 pounds; (c) developed a deformed eye; (d) developed smaller ears and a smaller mouth; (e) gone from being an innovative computer programmer to being computer-challenged; (f) aged substantially more than three years in appearance; and (g) changed from being a quiet, smiling young man respectful to women to a rather different one (a sound file in Yousef's computer, for example, includes his voice saying "F , f , f " and "Shut up, you b ").
6. Other instances have shown Iraq tampering with and using files during their invasion of Kuwait to establish alternate identities for agents.
7. The laptop also revealed he was plotting to blow up 12 US airliners on a single day.

Eerily familiar? Up next, OKC.

(I will not likely be reading posts on this thread after posting, so feel free to email...Even if you disagree, do a little research on your own.)

Part 2, Oklahoma City, 1995.

The 6-year investigation of OKC:
1. McVeigh and Nichols were not alone in planning and carrying out the bombing, the exhaustive report concludes.
2. Evidence others besides McVeigh and Nichols had a hand in planning the attack, securing the materials for the explosives, and carrying the bombing out;
3. Materials detailing the government's early assertion that other unexploded bombs were found by authorities immediately after the first bomb went off.

Recall that Ramzi Yousef was captured in the Philppines in 1995 for his part in the 1993 WTC attack. During Nichol's trial, phone records show that he made 13 "unidentified calls" from his home in Kansas to the Philippines in early April 1995.

Reports from investigators in the House Judiciary Committee noted that "McVeigh's telephone records showed a number of calls to Iraq"

Recall John Doe # 1 and #2? #1 was quickly identified as McVeigh. #2 was decribed as: had dark olive skin and appeared to look possibly Middle Eastern or Mexican. (Some later identified as the Iraqi suspect, Al Hussain Hussaini. Hussaini had reportedly been seen fleeing the area of the Murrah Building and with McVeigh at several locations prior to the bombing in OKC. )

Sorry, not eloquently written, been very long day.)

Addendum: McVeigh, during his prison time, wrote several "essays", including one entitled An Essay on Hypocrisy in which he rants against the government and in support of Saddam.

Interested in Part 3? I'll post if emailed, but is getting late and I'm very exhausted. I would want to do justice to the piece...

You still here, Arthur Rowe? Got nuthin' on TOS, do you? But you gotta counter TOS before I bother listening to you.

Amen, TOS. And definitely interested in part#3.

My liberian is an old lady and she's real nice.

from andrew sullivan.com
THE PRE-9/11 MIND: The more I read emails or talk to anti-war types, I get a sense that 9/11 never really happened. Or if it happened, it meant nothing more than a discrete crime with discrete criminals who alone deserved justice. The notion that it meant that we were and are actually at war with a series of terrorist entities and the tyrannies that support them never truly took hold on the far left (or right). As the months have passed, their complacency and denial have undoubtedly metastasized among others as 9/11 recedes from our collective consciousness and its emotional wound begins to heal. These people, it's worth remembering, believe that the exercise of American military power is almost always more morally problematic than any foreign tyranny or even a serious security threat to the homeland. They can only justify American military power if it is wielded under imminent, grave danger that can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. That's why they are so exercised about tiny pieces of evidence today. They still believe we were wrong to remove Saddam from power without incontrovertible proof of WMDs of a type unobtainable in police states; they still believe America had no moral sanction for such an action; and they are even more determined to prove the superiority of their case now that the war was such a military success. So they have to turn the fallible evidence before the war into "lies"; and they have to turn the difficult but worthy post-war reconstruction into a "quagmire." They know the only chance they have is to turn American public opinion against the war so as to prevent any such exercise of military power again. In that sense, they really cannot simply be mocked. They must be challenged at every turn. For they are engaged in a process that will not only stymie efforts at reforming the Middle East but will make Americans and others more vulnerable to the designs of the Islamofascists and their terrorist allies. The war abroad cannot therefore be extricated from the debate at home. We will not win the former without winning the latter.

Isn't interesting that most of the "Saddam has no linkd to Al-Queada" crowd are the same ones who take the Oliver Stone "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy" version of the JFK assasination to be gospel truth.

This was hillarious. I used to find humor in the Onion... that is until i discovered scrappleface.

Addendum to Part 1:
the first WTC bombing took place on the anniversary of the liberation of Kuwait by allied forces in the first Gulf War.

Tom, please learn how to use paragraphs. Right now you are all but incomprehensible.

Thats it other scott,I am sold.
Any other links to the John Birch Society?
McVeigh got the hot shot rather than turn in his Iraqi accomplices right?
Terry Nichols,who couldnt wait to turn in McVeigh,is about to face a death sentence in Oklahoma rather than turn in his "'Iraqi"" accomplices.
Now thats loyalty.
Ever see the bullet that blew the back of Kennedays head off?
Did it come from the front or the back?
Ray Charles can see it came from the back,Earl Warren and crew deemed otherwise.

ok guys you can go back to duct taping your house and rereading the turner diaries,me and the other 279,999,999 dimwitted Americans are going to stick with the feds assessment.

The anniversary of oklahoma city coicides with the birth of Hitler, I knew the krauts would get back at us.

Arthur Rowe, why not discuss, rather than attempt to ridicule? Is it that you have no valid argument for any of it, or unwilling to do a little research yourself (or do you prefer to have Dan RAther do it for you?)?

Typical liberal response #1: If you have no point to make, attack the presenter.

I'm not claiming a direct link...merely a shadow of doubt that the "people responsible" for each may not have been an isolated group. There are too many questions, and certainly Arthur Rowe would be willing to explain at least some of them.

Oops...poor grammar alert. Meant above to say the shadow of doubt was that they WERE isolated groups. Darn negatives and double negatives...

I dont mean to come off as indifferent other scott but as you can see Ive been ridiculed for not blindly accepting what you say as fact.

That being said and as I said yesterday I recall a woman who buried her grandchildren at OKC saying she wanted the feds to persue the Iraqi link to McVeigh.

I have heard these statements elsewhere as well.

Calls to the Phillipines from former g.i's arent really that odd considering that almost every sailor or g.i that served in the pacific ends up on or around subic bay.

The fact that McVeigh wrote several essays on our hypocricy in Iraq isnt strange to me.
The man was about to be hanged by the same government he killed for.
Paranoid..yes
delusional..yes
Iraqi...not in my opinion..

Now if you want to interrogate every olive skinned man in the Oklahoma/Texas perimeter you will be doing alot of interviewing..

Finally and not that this will change my,yours or the other readers opinion but it is the basis of my argument..

You have 1 guy who turned states evidence against his friend to save his own hide..
The man watches his friend get the hot shot...
The man is now about to be extradicted to Oklahoma for a new trial in which he will face the same hot shot...He says nothing????Why doesnt he speak about his other accomplices like he did McVeigh?

I dont get it,he rolls on his army buddy but shuts up for Ramsi Yousef?

I am no expert on this and other scott is very well read on the subject,this I will admit freely..
What I do know a little about is self preservation and Terry Nichols was the master of it.
What I do know is Steve Jones is a great atty and this subject was never brought up in court,even when his clients life was on the line!

There isnt a nation in the middle east that didnt have individual nationals attack us at 1 point or the other,including Iraq but these are the questions that are going unanswered and in my opinion they outweigh the Bagdad conspiracy theory.

There are many many people who looked at McVeigh and said """"""NO WAY""""""" this kid is as American as apple pie but the fact remains that McVeigh went thru 2 trials and was executed for blowing up 240+ innocents,including a day care center because he was an angry young man.

Hey lighten up "Everybody makes mistakes"

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/07/23/clinton.iraq.sotu/index.html

This could have been a post from Scott Ott himself!!

Arthur Rowe - Sticking with the feds assessment? Would those be the same feds that you don't trust with intelligence and national security?

Jericho,there was a 6 year 18billion hour investigation into this matter with a lot of unanswered questions,granted.

Again,I will trust the grand jury that indicted and the 2 juries that convicted McVeigh seeing as though they heard ALL the available evidence and have a much better view of what happened than either me,you,Tom or other scott.

Do you find this less than reasonable and if so,why?

AR- Nichols never rolled on McVeigh, that was Fournier.

AR - Juries only hear what prosecutors tell them. In this case the Feds, who at that time were under...a less than truthful, (shall we say?) ... leader.

Arthur,

Nichols' attorney did, in fact, bring much more out in the open than was ever reported. Will send links tonight.

I hate it when I type 300 friggin words and end up clearing the screen by accident,completley blowing my train of thought but anyways...

I knew there was another conviction on this matter but I thought it was Terry Nichols brother.

Jericho
Are you suggesting that because Bill Clinton was president that the Oklahoma Federal prosecutor ignored the Iraqi link and framed McVeigh and Nichols?
Are you also saying that Terry Nichols didnt plead out to save his own butt?

Come on man,now youre feeding me what the bull left in brighton.

Also Jericho

Juries get to hear the defense attorneys side of the story..From OJ to the Twinkie defense to the too much t.v. crap,from Judas Priest to Dungeons and Dragons..all have been used in defending murderers in trying to provoke a reasonable doubt in the jury box.

Other Scott
please provide me with Nichols attys words when its conveiniant for you.
thank you.

And lets hear it for Sammy""mr saturday nite"" Waksal who is spending the minimum of 6yrs 9 mos in the club fed type of environment of Schuykill Pa....No more Gallagers Sammy no more Palm either but I hear the wednesday evening pepper steak is to die for....
http://money.cnn.com/2003/07/23/news/companies/waksal_prison/index.htm?cnn=yes

"Hey lighten up "Everybody makes mistakes"

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/07/23/clinton.iraq.sotu/index.html

This could have been a post from Scott Ott himself!!

Posted by: Dutchie on July 23, 2003 01:11 PM"

This really takes the cake. I hope you find some more stuff like this, Dutchie! For a moment, I thought that Scott got a job at CNN.

I didn't do it. In fact, I think the real killer is on the other side of that sand bunker. I'll think I'll check it out. FOUR!

HHmmmmmmmmm ... twinkie defense. How could you convict that twinkie of anything but being delicious.

AR - There was no Nichols plea, the jury convicted him and sentenced him to life. Clearly, the three, McVeigh, Nichols, and Fournier (though he pulled out early, but was still indicted, and then pled) were involved.

Regarding what the jury heard: Prosecutors, when judges favor them, or when judges are pressured, typically get all kinds of information kept from juries.

And yes, there is no doubt in my mind that the last thing President Clinton wanted was to deal with a mid east terror attack. He was after a mideast based noble prize, don't you recall?

Remember, the phone call to a St. Louis liberal talk radio program from Air Force One. He opportunistically turned OKC into a "right wing gun nut-talk radio-militia issue" It was OKC that saved his political butt that time. Just a few months before he was quoted as saying, "I'm still relevant," remember?

Three guys, one who pulled out early, planned the whole thing, funded the whole thing, and pulled it off? Even the FBI said their were "other unnamed co-conspirators," right?!!!

It has been reported that after McVeigh and Nichols traveled to the Philippines, the NSA picked up an Al-Qaeda message, that 'two lily whites had been recruited.'

Could a President be involved in such an effort at diversion and cover-up. You think such is possible with the current one regarding 9-11 and Iraq intel. Clearly, President Nixon, was involved in a large cover-up effort. Such has occured in several previous administrations. Would it be so implausible that such occured at OKC, but this time was successful (to a degree) because the mainstream media CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, so desperate to define the world and peace have avoided it, and FOX, already labeled a nutty network will not push it.

You really ought to check out the work of the local OKC reporter Jenna Davis(Davison?) I think was her name, the first reporter on the scene. She has done extensive work, even written a book on the subject I believe, converted to conservatism after he story was spiked by her local affilate and her dossier ignored by the FBI. She details in hundreds of interviews the involvement of a group of Iraqis in the attack.
It is not light reporting that she did.

Well that is enough. I won't spend anymore time on this. On to other threads, willing to engage or ally with you there.

:-)!

Arthur Rowe...

Here's a tidbit about Nichols' lawyer:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/05/14/national/main291113.shtml

There's more, but this thread is getting way too long. Email if you want more...

Thank you gentleman for taking the time to enlighten me,although my opinion hasnt changed I have made it a point to look into this further.
Many many unanswered questions and I for one certainly dont trust the feds at face value.
Thank you again.

Rev. Albert,
Prove that I am Caucasian.

SRG,

You used the word Caucasian. Only a whitey cracker boy would do that.

No oil, No troops ! I was right !

Dear KJ,

You said that "the US was not the biggest supporter of Iraq, even when we were on friendlier terms. Only about 4% of all weapons had US origins."

Trusting official statistics in that matter is rather naive in my opinion !

Any knews of the alleged WMD ?

Cordialement,

Making purely speculative, unsupportable allegations is worse than naive, it is dishonest or stupid.

We know their jets, when they had them, were French or Russian. We know they bought a lot of Russian stuff before the war that didn't help very much. Storage boxes of a lot of the hand held stuff was stamped Jordon. Basically, there is no news that I have heard that we faced any of our own weapons at any significant level. But hey, I'm just naive. I should just start hating Bush, then I could see the facts, unsupported by any evidence though they may be.

WMD: lots of evidence they existed, no evidence they were destroyed. Maybe Clinton got 'em all with the Lewinsky distraction bombings of 1998 and Saddam just refused to tell us to bait us into this terrible war.

No oil, No troops ! I was right !

Its time for someone to come out and say the harsh words. time to tell the rest of the world that this is not the 13 century and you are not an island unto yourself. time to quit killing each other en masse. god knows you wont be popular. they'll call you the antichrist, heathen, christian, bigot, racist, anything but muslim. oh your trying to be the worlds police. the world is just fine teaching their children to hate someone because of color, religion,sex, race,etc, etc, etc, adinfinitum. leave us alone, we are to busy hating than spend our efforts in building what, family, community, world.

I dont personaly like the idea of world government, but that is probably because I see to many people with there hands out, to many idealists out there that think they know better than me what I should or should not believe that are all too willing to govern. This world as one is inevitable. the world is becoming to small to allow this global bickering to continue uncontended. we are the worlds police. and all we are really trying to enforce is the quiet. If you will just practice your hate in quite and try not to kill to many as to make your hate a foul smell in the air we will probably leave you to yourself.

what part of this dont you understand. perhaps in our effort to have everybody like us we miss the opprtunity to act as responsible people.

I dont trust anyone who goes out of his way to be liked. con, conman, confidence man, bill clinton.

sincerely, in my own insanity

butthead

Dear Butthead,

What a beautiful and noble rhetoric !

But nobody buy it !

Cordialement ;-)