FIRST, NA NA NA--NANA!

Wal-Mart's unnamed spokesperson also said, "Hillary Clinton's book, and his wife's, book, 'My Days and Nights With Monica', written by Bill's ghost writer, will fit right in with our store's motto of falling prices. The price will keep falling until we have to GIVE them away!"

Good Morning Wal Mart shoppers!

Until 6 p.m. Over in aisle 6, shelf 6, where the store isn't well lit is where you'll see the banner with the American flag in the center of a large black circle/slash.

That's where you'll find our special "give away items". Books and fiction videos by Michael Moore, Dixie Chick CD's and DVD's, All movies starring or produced and directed by Martin Sheen, Susan SureAmDum/Tim Robbins, George Clooney, Janene GawdAwfulHo, and others.

Please be sure to bring a blanket or coat along if you plan to visit the special give away area as there have been complaints of a chill wind blowing in that location of your otherwise friendly neighborhood WalMart.

thank God that you can pick up such books at Walmart. For years I had trouble finding conservative and religious books (except for new age) in the mall book stores, so I had to get catalogues and special order them.
Now I can get them on Amazon or at Walmart while my husband is buying his supplies and don't have to take a separate trip and search and search...

HEY..HEY ..HEY
Dont be picking on Ann Coulter

Hmm, the pride that right-wing nutsies take in the support they receive from Wal-Mart shoppers is a bit troubling... Here I thought that elephantines are the party of new ideas... Survey says: EEEEEE.

Postulate: Wal-Mart Shoppers are uniformly stupid

Proof: It should be troubling to Wal-Mart shoppers that elephantines use them for their stupidity. However, they would realize this simple factoid of life, but only if they were smart enough to realize it, which obviously they are not. Also, since the sample size of Wal-Mart shoppers is greater than 30, we fit the uniformity requirement of the normal distribution. Hence, Wal-Mart shoppers are uniformly stupid. Q.E.D.

LPB

P.S. Yes, I know, the above only proves that I'm quite a snob when it comes to Wal-Mart. There is, however, an idealistic reason. I won't set foot there, not just because the patron's lack of anything resembling intelligence, but also, because of what this company has done to eliminate American jobs and businesses, as well as how they treat their employees. And yes, I vote with my wallet :)

Quote:
P.S. Yes, I know, the above only proves that I'm quite a snob when it comes to Wal-Mart. There is, however, an idealistic reason. I won't set foot there, not just because the patron's lack of anything resembling intelligence, but also, because of what this company has done to eliminate American jobs and businesses, as well as how they treat their employees. And yes, I vote with my wallet :)

Cleanup on aisle "7"...Please,...Cleanup on aisle "7"!

LPB,

I come from a small town in the Show Me state. It has a name, and outside the gate of Fort Lost-in-the-woods, Misery. The town is ugly, has a bookstore that sells porn and other filth, as well as the requisite number of car and motorcycle mags. The children's section is non existant, and the romance section, SF section and fantasy, horror and local interest sections are two-three rows each.

Wal Mart hasn't driven them out of business, nor has it driven the local Christian bookstore out of business that is two doors down from the other mom and pop store.

Wal Mart has not driven out the local healthfood store, the local Dr. Love Store (rumored to sell adult products. Haven't been in, so don't know)

The local eateries have not suffered either. The only thing that this Wally World has done is give the consumer another choice, and kept it available 24/7. The auto parts stores, and repair shops are still thriving, as are the storage facility places.

One business did fold shortly after we were transferred there: The U-Haul place right outside the front gate. She ripped soldiers off for years, until me and a couple of other military people starting calling U-Haul about what she was doing.

The market is consumer driven, so as long as there are people who want what Wal Mart has to offer, there will be Wal Marts.

Pesonally, I check the labels to see if they are made in the USA. If it isn't made in the US of A, I don't buy, and I can and do go elsewhere.

One more thing: The people of the armed forces also have one of the best consumer grapevines in the world. If there is a place that gives good honest service, the news will spread like wildfire.
By the same token, you rip off too many, that will go around too.

LPB:

***A few comments on your earlier post:

Hmm, the pride that right-wing nutsies take in the support they receive from Wal-Mart shoppers is a bit troubling...

***Gee - why would Republicans (the party of the "rich and powerful" according to liberal dogma) be proud that "ordinary hard-working Americans" were interested in conservative ideology and values?

Postulate: Wal-Mart Shoppers are uniformly stupid

***Because they aren't buying what you think they should read? Because they shop at a store that has the goods they want and charges the lowest prices? Is this your definition of stupid? Hmmm - sounds a bit condescending.

Proof: It should be troubling to Wal-Mart shoppers that elephantines use them for their stupidity. However, they would realize this simple factoid of life, but only if they were smart enough to realize it, which obviously they are not.

***Let's dissect this one - hey - let's use LOGIC! WalMart seeks maximum profit, so they stock their shelves with the things their customers demand. If an item doesn't sell well, it is not restocked. They sell in volume to reduce marginal costs, which allows them to reduce prices. The PEOPLE who shop there are obviously the victims of a massive right-wing conspiracy to...supply them with what they want at the lowest price. And stupid, to boot. Personally, I'm shocked....

Also, since the sample size of Wal-Mart shoppers is greater than 30, we fit the uniformity requirement of the normal distribution.

***I taught Elementary Probability and Statistics as well as tutoring it at the community college and college levels for 3 years. What the heck does this have to do with anything? Oh - I don't make a million dollars and I buy conservative books - I must be stupid.

It's funny - apparently WalMart shoppers have much in common with African immigrants, who have been the object of frenzied re-education attempts by the NAACP to convince them that they are the victims of a racist conspiracy. Unfortunately, both groups are too busy working hard and getting ahead to know when they're being oppressed.

...and I agree with Cricket. Most military bases are in the middle of nowhere. When you look at how much a junior enlisted servicemember makes, having a WalMart or (dare I say it?) K-Mart available makes the difference between living like a real person and merely existing.

Everyone shops at discount stores in the military - officers and enlisted. When you move every 6 mos. to 3 years, your household goods take a real beating and often have to be replaced. I can sew, but little things like curtains make a house into a home. Try buying new curtains at JCPenneys every move - there's no money left for those little luxuries like food and clothing. When we had to buy those things at small businesses (which was the case 20 years ago when my husband got in) and paid higher prices, we just did without.

Before you get too excited about small businesses, you should also realize that in many small towns, a store like WalMart or KMart creates lots of jobs. People are so desperate for jobs in towns like Yucca Valley (right up the road from 29 Stumps, CA) that they line up before dawn when something like that opens up.

A few things to think about from someone who doesn't particularly like WalMart either. Personally, I'm a KMart fan - I can overlook the ambiance to get low prices and merchandise I like.

LPB, Drinking before noon doesnít become you.

>>>And yes, I vote with my wallet :)

Posted by: LogicPenaltyBox on May 18, 2003 12:03 PM

Isn't that how you dimocrats lost Florida in 2000? Not having sense enough to know HOW to vote properly? Wallet votes don't count!

Hey...

Since when did Wal-Mart actually have anything good or remotely useful? I thought their motto was...
"You want it [crap], We got it [crap]!"

Cassandra...while your info and logic was sound, there's one premise you missed: to those like LPB (who claim to not shop at Walmart, but get upset if they don't sell something THEY might want), the concept of a market economy, much less a market-driven, FOR-PROFIT company, is completely lost on them.

Which, in a way, exposes their socialist ideals...

There once was a blogger named frenchman,
Who smelled like a ten-week-old trashcan,
'His' boyfriend named Joe/Dave,
Was his fav, S&M; slave,
If they would just learn to bathe, they'd not
stench-man!

Hey, Scott. I hate Wal-Mart with a vengence, because of their crowded, unfriendly atmosphere, the disgusting ... mess on the floors, the terrible customer service, and the all-around "stench" in the Wal-Mart chain. Besides, they don't sell anything remotely near what I want... I used to shop their, but then they made a few... "changes," and I stopped.

I hate Socialists!! Where are they!?

Personally, I am not a big Wal~Mart fan primarily because of the huge crowd shopping there (Open 24/7, screaming kids and all) and they do sell crap (Wal~Mart, Fall~Apart). But having studied them in business school and doing business with them as a supplier, you have to respect the way they squeeze the profit out of what they sell.

They don't do this by catering specifically to "stupid" people. They do it by utilizing one of the best logistics systems in the world, a database that is second in size to the Dept of Defense which helps them determine what product sell the best where and when, and constantly breaking new ground in retail management.

They share thier data with their vendors and encourage their vendors to share with them.

I'm sure some businesses have closed because of them and jobs lost as a result of that, but they have also provided hundreds of thousands of jobs and helped many new and existing businesses to thrive, selling products through their store. Not to mention thier contribution to productivity in this country which is why we have a standard of living that most other nations want.

Your admission of snobbery is seen by me as a confession of the stupidity that you claim the average W/M shopper has and without any "Logic" whatsoever.

ILIA is right.

And even though they also squeeze their suppliers to the lowest possible price, that doesn't necessarily mean bad news for the manufacturers. They know their sales will increase if they can merchandise there.

A friend of mine owns a pub in a local mini-mall. His business soared when a Wal-Mart went up and the storefronts that sat empty for years were suddenly turning into specialty shops. The local teenaggers who previously spent their days using the mall railings for their skateboarding were suddenly inside the mall making subs and bagging groceries. No kidding. I was thrilled to see it.

Angry Commie,

Socialists are merely mini-communists...like wine and cheese, needs to be aged to perfection. Kinda like Limburger. Speaking of Limburger, smells like Frenchman! (Who may or may not be male).

SAM---that's AWESOME!..and how it should work.

Dear Logic Penalty Box: Terrific!! The last time I heard or read anything as supercillious as your last comment about Wal-Mart, it came out of the mouth of Gore Vidal. You are the best laugh I have had in monthsl; in fact, since the last Weapons of Mass Destruction post from Frenchman. Keep up the good work. We all need a chuckle in these parlous times.

Hey....Wally World is great...they still sell GUNS! I luv guns...guns r gud...low cost guns!
Low cost charmin! Low cost beef jerky! I luv jerky...jerky is gud. And tools! Low cost tools for fixin' stuff...stuff I didn't but at Wally World!

I'm new to this Scott Ott enterprise. I enjoy reading most of the posts here. Most of the posters are highly creative and intelligent folks...some are dumber than sacks of sticks.

Ain't America great?

rannoque the gun nutt

oopsie! That's 'buy', not 'but'.....I reread it twice, too....maybe I am a moron, like LPB implied.

Rannoque

Rannoqoe (another French name, I see...We are being infiltrated!)

Perhaps it is you implied, not as LPB implied. Actually, wouldn't really matter...a moron is a moron. :-)

Frightening. "Praise be" that SF comment boards are no more representative of the average American than NYC is.

Give it 20-40 years, LPB. We're almost there.

-JS

PS: Out of curiosity, am I the only one who sees a major cultural clash coming, ie a "Civil War II" or some such? The Midwest and South are getting more and more backwards, socially; the cities are getting more and more postmodern, which is idiotic in the other direction.

Frightening.

Frightening. "Praise be" that SF comment boards are no more representative of the average American than NYC is.

Give it 20-40 years, LPB. We're almost there.

-JS

PS: Out of curiosity, am I the only one who sees a major cultural clash coming, ie a "Civil War II" or some such? The Midwest and South are getting more and more backwards, socially; the cities are getting more and more postmodern, which is idiotic in the other direction.

Frightening.

Logic Penality Box

Stupid Walmart

Logic Penalty Box

Stupid Walmart shoppers

Logic penalty box

Stuid Walmart shoppers

Logic Penalty Box

Stupid Walmart Shoppers

Stupid Walmart Shoppers

Logic Penalty Box

Jericho, I disagree. I'm a perfectionist (which doesn't go well with my procrastination side, but I won't get into that...), and I like things clean. Now, since the average American is 30 pounds overweight and eats fast food for dinner at least 4 nights a week, I can understand why they shop at Wal-Mart. The average American is also educated at a high-school level, and they don't drop out 'cause they have to support the family at home. I wouldn't call them smart by any stretch of any small, large, or indifferent imagination.

You know why Wal-Mart costs less? 'cause they don't have to pay janitors and cleaning people at all.......

I'd pay double for better service, merchandise, and cleanliness anyday.

There's my two cents...

Angry Commie - Better to have put your two cents where the famed widow did than invest it in about 98% of most college studies where the 'stupid Americans' would be set upon by nihilists of the worst degree teaching moral relativism and other such garbage and expounding on the saving grace of reasoning and logic.

Americans can get a much better education from the WAL-MART book department than most college campuses.

Angry Commie---how dare you! A true communist would want EVERYONE to pay the same.

You're really just a socialist that wishes to become a communist, aren't you?

What WalMart are you jokers going to? The one I visit (when they don't have what I want at the next door Sam's Club) is plenty clean & the prices can't be beat. Plus they have tons of name brand stuff - look in the electronics department, some of the prices are lower than mail order - look in the lawn & garden shop (where I recently purchased some spaghnum peat moss and a Coleman propane grill.
As far the the screamin' kids, well a few years ago those were MY kids, so #@%** you, buddy!

These posts reflect the Lefties' central contradiction: they claim to love America, but they have a sneering contempt for Americans.

I'm not a socialist or a communist, though I could convincingly act either one... You have a pure-bread capitalist here, folks!

Jericho... maybe you can learn new things from Bob the Builder books, but the rest of us have moved a bit beyond, into actual course books, maybe? Last time I checked, Wal-Mart didn't carry text books.... Maybe I should check again?

Angry Commie - Walmart has a fine selection of the greatest text book ever written. :-)!

Angry Commie - Or you could pay $10,000-12,000 a year to a state university and have 'professors' teach you both lip and by key about how you came from a rock.

It's Pure-bred.

That's somethin' fascinatin' to me... How sayins' get changed when people don't know where they originated...

I reckon yer not into livestock? Or am I readin' too much into the letter A?

My Walmart is now a SUPER Walmart, thankya very much.

FMM

Angry Commie,

Isn't that redundant? Most communists are angry because even when they are on the corrupt side of the system, they still aren't as well off as most in free societies.

Supply and Demand will never go away. You keep demanding to pay higher prices and people will keep supplying you with the goods.

Angry Commie--
I'm not a socialist or a communist, though I could convincingly act either one...

Didn't seem that convincing to me...

Angry Commie Pinko Dude,
Sounds like for all your snobbery, you frequent Wall Mart plenty enough to know that Bob the Builder books
are in stock. Thanks for the tip!

My Wally World is clean, with helpful friendly employees. There is also a salon where I can get a foot massage and a pedicure after all that shopping.

And if I want textbooks I will go to the local Barnes and Noble. There I can sniff coffee (which I don't drink) while I browse. I LIKE Wal Mart as a family friendly place to shop. Not only that, the store USED to let little kids push kid size carts with a flag on top that said "Wal Mart Shopper in training." And MY kids had a blast on Saturdays, which was kids day there.

Sounds like you were a deprived child. Poor Angry Commie. Are you angry because you are not in Cuba?
Don't let the Statue of Liberty kick you on your way out.

Cassandra,
Oh, thanks for those memories...moving all the time and no curtains to fit the windows...I always felt like a pooch in a basket every time we moved. I swear the Army had speakers in our quarters, because the moment I uttered the fateful words, "Now I have our quarters just the way I like them," we had orders. The pooch in the basket is a reference to dogs turning around three times before they lie down.

We shoved our furniture around constantly cause it seemed that nothing fit!

But the curtains. Oh man the curtains. Wal Mart carries these paper ones that are pleated, and they have an adhesive strip at the top to press on top of the frame. They look decent and are only four dollars apiece, and until I can get my curtains made, that is what I have been using! Forty bucks to cover the windows in my new house and Wal Mart came through.

So, neener neener neener to Angry Commie.

*** Sic Em, Dog! Elitism STINKS!... You rock! I like you. Good doggie!

Your loyal and kind yet know how to growl and bark when an intruder comes close. You're my hero!
**************

Cricket-----
" The pooch in the basket is a reference to dogs turning around three times before they lie down.

***** a friend of mines 'son one time while observing that very thing asked his mom if she knew why dogs did that. She said no. He told her: " because one good turn deserves another." (:~})

Do not like Wal-Mart or to say people that shop there is racist. Many african americans depend on the quality and prices Wal-Mart provides. Logic is therefore a racist and wants to keep the brother down. he would rather us go back to the days of Jin Crow and have the black man pay high prices for low quality merchandise. What's a brother to do.

This announcement paid for by Walmart contributions to the Rainbow/Operation Push Foundations.

Hmm... I'll go at this by numbers, cause I have so much letters of admiration to look at...

1. I wasn't trying to act like a commie, why should I?
2. My Wal-Mart is the farthest from "kid-friendy" as possible. It never had, and never will have small carts that kids can push around. It is just a dirty, unservicable place.
3. I just assumed it had Bob the Builder books. I don't know...
4. I'd sure be willing to pay that much (cheap college?) to get a college education. Then, you can get what we call a job... and make money...

Anything I missed?

Ah, yes, the most important number, ...

5. I would sacrafice Wal-Mart's low prices for quality and service, as well as a friendly environment.

It is quite obvious that your Wal-Marts are better than my local one. Mine is crap, you all's appear to be at least in mint condition.

Another complaint I have against them, since it is so popular (God knows why...), the parking lot is constantly full, and I have to park across the street. Why bother doing that, and going through all of the trouble, when I can drive to Target, which is closer to my house anyway, and find a spot?

Attention Wal-Mart Shoppers

First of all, the bile that y'all heap on me does not become you. 2nd, drinking before noon is a Russian tradition, so don't knock it. 3rd...

I've worked with Wal-Mart, on a corporate level, and yes YOU ARE STUPID if you buy there.

Ignorance of reality is stupidity in my book.

If you don't know how the pyramid scheme works, check out Wal-Mart's history. Because of their practices (Home Depot is now trying to pull the same crap in the home improvement area) many US companies have gone out of business - and I'm not talking about just mom and pop shops that you'd normally think about. Companies that SELL to Wal-Mart are generally on a path of self-destruction. That's why most of the crap you see there happens to be from mainland China, since even the Taiwanese suppliers can't compete with North Korean slave labor... Made in America labels don't last too long on Wal-Mart shelves, because they go out of business thanks to some very 'creative' inventory maintenance.

I have nothing against free enterprise, and actually happen to be in Milton Friedman's camp when it comes to capitalism. Those of you who do not understand how Wal-Mart works (or Home Depot) for that matter, should try to read up on it prior to lambasting me :)

LPB

Personally, I favor Meijer's over Wal-Mart.
The Wal-Mart closest to me is kind of dirty (but lots cleaner than K-Mart), and Meijer's produce dept is waaaaay better.
The prices are comperable.

"Greatest text-book" Hmmm. That would have to be Walker, Azimov, and Boyd's "Biochemistry." First published in the late '30s and updated and used by dozens of universities ever since.

As for my book shopping, I go to a locally owned and operated place: Hawley-Cooke. Their prices are a little higher than Borders or Barnes & Nobles, but I like the store atmosphere better, and the coffee is better. The children's section is terrific (not that I have/want any), and they have employees read stories to the kids.

I am most definitely an elitist. Somebody has to drive the car, why not the best driver?
Why does everybody think elitism is such a bad thing?
I'm not talking about a small group of people who consider themselves to be an "elite" running things. I'm talking about people who have proven themselves to be among the best at certain things, be the ones in charge of those things.

Let's let those people who have by the dint of their effort worked their way up through the ranks of their respective specialties, be in charge of that specialty.
Best businessmen in charge of the business.
Best soldiers in charge of the military.
Et cetera.

It is also, a capitalist system.

SRGI'm OK with elitism as long as it is based on performance (which it rarely is), but I find it hard to take from liberals since they purport to represent the "common man" and then sneer at him when no one is looking.

And I don't think it's a huge issue where you like to shop. That's the great thing about America - we have lots of choices.

When money is in short supply, you go for the best prices. When you have more money but less time, you make the old "capital for labor" substitution and buy some things you used to make by hand to save money. When you have enough money but lots of stress, you gravitate toward the most pleasant shopping experience, even if you pay higher prices. That's the price of the nicer atmosphere.

I tend to avoid WalMart now that I have enough money to choose where I shop (although in fairness, I also avoid malls and other crowded places). But I'm sure glad it was there when I needed it - and I certainly don't look down on people who do shop there.

And LPB is missing an important point - not everyone has or chooses to spend lots of money on certain items. For them, it's not a question of WalMart or small business - it's a question of "I can afford the item at WalMart, but not at Mom&Pop;'s, where I would pay a 100%** markup". Or, put another way, if I buy at WalMart
I can get everything on my list instead of half the items on my list". Sounds like a "no-brainer" (pun intended) to me.

**Having worked at numerous small businesses over the years, I can tell you that 100% markup is pretty common - about 75% of the small businesses I worked in used this markup.

Some random guy...the balance of your comments were right on--we do have the choice to shop where we want, realizing the service and cleanliness do go hand in hand with pricing.

The one problem I have is what you said about elitists, because what tends to happen in virtually any field (especially in politics and Hollywood), that small groups promote certain people that really are NOT the best, but that that group MAKES to appear the best with awards, lavish praise, etc. For instance, Michael Moore (award for documentary that isn't a documentary but an op-ed piece.).

Ideally, your remarks about elitists would be true, if it weren't for the elitists self-promoting!

Hey, Scott...
You were absolutely correct, LPB didn't imply that Wally World shoppers are morons...he simply stated that they are stupid...my mistake.

I agree with you, ramdom guy...Meijers has a great produce dept. Problem for me is that they sell more and more items that are manufactured in that great bastion of free enterprise...China. Of course, that seems to be where most large retailers get their merchandise these days, anyway. At least Wal Mart makes a concerted effort to put US made items on the shelves...for all of us stupid Wally World shoppers to spend our hard earned dollars on.

Wally world is also one of the last large retailers to still offer firearms...and I think that that is a good thing.

No, I am not french...and I don't play them on TV.

rannoque the walmart shopper

Cass

I'm not missing that point. My issue with Wal-Mart is how they achieve their low mark-ups. And I have a hard time believing that extra $$$/week on someone's shopping bill should they choose another chain will make a serious dent in their budget, because the savings aren't that great. As far as mom and pop shops, yes the mark up can be remarkable (no pun intended), but I can't fault them for not being able to compete with the Wal-Mart inventory pyramid scheme.

LPB

LPB:

Try living on military pay sometime :) Believe it or not, 10% can be the difference between spending all your money 7 days before payday and being able to go to the grocery store 2 days before payday when you run out of milk. It all adds up. There are a million things I did to keep costs down when I ran a household: coupons, only buying sale items, never buying pre-packaged foods, no snack foods or soda, homemade cleaning supplies, going to the library instead of buying books or getting cable TV - none of them saved LOTS of money, but together they added up.

Also, when they don't have enough cash, many people turn to credit cards (which REALLY raises the price of what you buy). Not a smart thing to do, but you do what you have to to make ends meet.

Cass:

Well, that's one thing we agree on, military pay is simply out of whack with the current prices. Since I've lived paycheck-to-paycheck most of my life, I can sincerely identify with the issues you're bringing up. I'd still argue that it's a matter of priorities, and you could choose to give up something else for paying incrementally small premium for not going to Wal-Mart.

To me, it's short-sited to think that paying less than is customary for goods is sustainable in the long-run without ruining a good portion of businesses that people here profess to care about. There is no such thing as free lunch, no matter how much we'd all like to believe that. I think it's irresponsible to only think of what's affecting your little corner of the world without giving any consideration as to how it's impacting the world at large. Wal-Mart, Home Depot, and other businesses based on their inventory model are best described as a cancer, and supporting them (appeasing them, if you will :) in the short-term will only exasperate issues that everyone here does care about, e.g. business profitability, american jobs, chinese & north korean labor camps, etc.

LPB

LPB...another logic point lost.

If all retail stores used, or were forced to use, the same methods of distribution, then your point about the sustainability with lower-than-customary would be valid. But with a national company that can buy in greater bulk than mom-and-pop (and in turn receive lower pricing or kickbacks or rebates or...) AND has a more efficient delivery of those goods, then it is extremely sustainable...and Walmart has proven that.

As far as the off-handed comment about the slave camps producing these goods, two things: 1. where's the proof? and 2. if it were true, and people who shop at said stores were upset by it, then those stores would have no real option than to get the product elsewhere. Called supply-and-demand, though I realize most state universities probably no longer teach it as a "valid" economic model.

Scott:

re: I realize most state universities probably no longer teach it as a "valid" economic model.

Good Lord: you're depressing me. Although I guess I shouldn't be surprised - reality seems to be sadly out of vogue in academia (notice how it sorta rhymes with "macademia" - what a bunch of nuts).

Cassandra (who is a woman):-)

Sorry to depress, but seems you already realize the extent of things. Hats off to you and yours doing your best to live off that military pay...not to mention the great things you do!

Logic Penaltybox said:

"Attention Wal-Mart Shoppers........Ignorance of reality is stupidity in my book."

LPB---is your book available at Wal Mart?

Lynch the Family Cat (oops, Freudian--I have 3 cats--all are abnormal in hteir own mostly-endearing way)

LPB's book not available at WalMart, but have seen listed on eBay, but only as a bulk lot (apparently not worth the time to package and ship individually). $1.05 for 200,00 copies, but the shipping is steep.

Scott

I wouldn't be harping on this issue if it were a simple method of bulk discount buying. However, the shelf-rent idea that Wal-Mart is built upon is not economically sustainable in the long-run, since it leads to erosion of competition among suppliers. Most 'made in USA' suppliers can't compete with the Chinese and their North Korean slave labor camps.

As far as proof of NK's slave labor camps, several stories have attempted to bring these uncomfortable facts to light. The fact that Chinese $400M/year trade with North Korea is somewhat interesting... I wonder what NK's are selling, since the weapons and power supplies are flowing the other way, and NK has virtually no hard currency...

LPB

LFC:

Actually, I'm not smart enough to write a book (at least in english), apparently, since everything I've learned in life, I've learned from my cats :)

LPB

I must be better than I thought, writing a book and knowing nothing about that period in my life... Amnesia? Maybe... Anyways, what's the ISBN on that, so that I can get a IP infringement suit going? :)

LPB

I see Walmart from two aspects, as a consumer and a designer. As a consumer, I buy certain things there, such as my prescriptions, some groceries and some clothing. The price is excellent, and the quality of the goods I buy there is acceptable.
But there are things I won't buy there. First and foremost are low salt foods, non-sugar sweets and foods. The store manager told me that there was no market for these items. Well, the chain supermarket two miles away sells a lot of this stuff. Our first stop when grocery shopping is that store.
Second, I look at many of the products Walmart offers from the viewpoint of a mechanical designer. Too many of their products, including many of the "name-brands" who do special models for Walmart, are only marginally designed. The auto industry has nothing on Walmart for planned obsolescence. If I'm workin a contract on the road and need something that will last 6 months to a year, I'll shop Wally World. But if it's something that I will take home when the contract ends, then I'll shop elsewhere. Case in point: off-brand ACs. A friend who worked for an AC manufacturer detailed the design compromises that go into the low-end ACs. It ain't a pretty picture...

LogicPenaltyBox writes:

"I've worked with Wal-Mart, on a corporate level, and yes YOU ARE STUPID if you buy there."

There is clearly a cause and effect issue here. Am I stupid FOR buying from Wal-Mart or am I stupid as the RESULT of buying from Wal-Mart?

Or is it a combination? Does the fact that I didn't pick up that 3rd master's degree or a Ph.D. make me more likely to shop at Wal-Mart than, for example, Howard Zinn or Noam Chomsky, who have their Ph.Ds.? I guess four years of post-graduate education couldn't save me from the fundamentalist morass of "Left Behind" or "Veggie Tales"... And then once I partook of the forbidden fruit of shopping at the Great Fly-Over Country Satan, my I.Q. continued its slide under massive overdoses of Jiffy Peanut Butter, Campbell's Cream of Mushroom Soup and farm-raised (heaven forfend) salmon steaks, items which can only be purchased at, er, oops, never mind. Now that I think about it, my dog did start double-timing his tail-chasing after we started him on Purina Beneful purchased at...well, you get it.

If you don't like Wal-Mart, have you snobs ever tried just not shopping there and then shutting up about your cultural superiority? The back pain from that amount of posturing would defy any chiroprac...er, orthopedist. Almost betrayed my Fly-Over Country roots...

I know of two great universities that have great business schools. Chicago and Univ. of Tenn., Knoxville (the latter from which I graduated ;-)
Too many different things from LPB and others to dissect (some wrong, some right, but generally good postings.

Cricket wrote: "I come from a small town in the Show Me state. It has a name, and outside the gate of Fort Lost-in-the-woods, Misery. "

Ah, memories . . . my family was stationed at Lost-In-The-Woods from 1979-81, and that Wal-Mart was the first one I had ever been in. (I remember when Waynesville was so small, it didn't even have a McDonald's, and I remember how momentous it was when one opened.)

LPB wrote:

"I've worked with Wal-Mart, on a corporate level, and yes YOU ARE STUPID if you buy there.

If you don't know how the pyramid scheme works, check out Wal-Mart's history. Because of their practices (Home Depot is now trying to pull the same crap in the home improvement area) many US companies have gone out of business - and I'm not talking about just mom and pop shops that you'd normally think about. Companies that SELL to Wal-Mart are generally on a path of self-destruction. That's why most of the crap you see there happens to be from mainland China, since even the Taiwanese suppliers can't compete with North Korean slave labor... Made in America labels don't last too long on Wal-Mart shelves, because they go out of business thanks to some very 'creative' inventory maintenance.

I have nothing against free enterprise, and actually happen to be in Milton Friedman's camp when it comes to capitalism. Those of you who do not understand how Wal-Mart works (or Home Depot) for that matter, should try to read up on it prior to lambasting me :)"

This is slop argument. Back one of these assertions up instead of referring us to some unnamed source. Prove your case instead of ranting. Explain how sellers to WM are on a path towards destruction. Are they forced to sell to WM? You've explained nothing and all your assertions are simply dust in the wind.

"...dust in the wind...all they are is dust innnnnnnnnnnnnn the winnnnnnnnnnnnd"

Sorry - got carried away :)

LPB,

You may have worked with large retailers, like WM or Depot, but it's obvious you've never supplied them goods internationally. I have.

You are terribly misinformed. You could never supply products to them out of North Korea.

Overseas factories that ship products to large US retailers are inspected regularly, (without prior notice). Employees at these factories are interviewed privately to make sure they are treated well and labor laws are followed. Products made at the factory are tested and inspected prior to shipment.

Think about it. Wal-Mart or Depot are not going to take the chance that they can be accused of using sweat shop labor.

Now we're getting into bad songs and even worse groups ;)

David Andersen - interesting name for someone who accuses others of slop arguments, but then, you'd know, eh? :)

In any case, every single statement made in my 'slop' argument has been in major media in the last 6 months. Take the veracity of those stories for what you will, but I generally try to read at least 6 'reputable' (read: not NY Times, Nor The Onion) sources before believing what I read :) I am not bound by the same precepts as the journalistic profession, so I don't lie all that often. Perhaps, if you don't read as far and wide as I do, maybe you should stick to the Wal-Mart book section.

glorybbb

I have not done any international work with the Chinese suppliers, though I have spent 2 yrs in international logistics, so that I know how to get around these shipping requirements. And please don't insult my intelligence (or apparent lack of there of) by avering that a large majority of products coming from China are not made in what would be classified as 'sweatshops'.

Here's the conspiracy theory on North Korean slave camps, throw darts at it as necessary...

There are currently 2.5M or so North Koreans in slave labor camps (60minutes, Newsweek, WSJ have all documented this).

China currently has a $400MM trade with North Korea, mostly in weapons systems and energy needs, despite UN sanctions (Newsweek, WSJ, The Age)

North Korea has no hard currency reserves (WSJ), hence it needs to trade something back to the Chinese government, who is not known to be very magnanimous.

Again, exactly what does North Korea supply the Chinese that's worth $400MM/yr? The only thing it can, manual labor. It'd be at best naive to believe that at least a part of this $400MM/yr is not paid for the manual labor coming out of the slave camps.

LPB

wmd = Wal Mart Discounts. Thtas why Frenchman wants to find them so bad and liberal know-it-alls like Logic Penalty Box don't beleives they exist.

The Onion is not a reputable source?

Dang.

LPB

Those are your "reputable sources" Newsweek, 60 minutes, WSJ. No wonder you have sucha distrorted view. Unlike you, I try to take a liberal source and balance it with a conservative source and read between the lines. The truth usually lies in the middle of both sides. Even then I try to add foreign source coupled with research from intelligence sources (I have acces to very high levels of stuff)

I don't actually take any of it as being 100% accurate.

BTW LPB I am not insulting you but am insulting the sources you listed. I am sure you are much more intelligent than so many of the public who take what they read or see on tv as fact.

LPB:

WorkED at Walmart at a corporate level?

Since they had the since to get rid of you it makes them seem like quite the operation. That, all by itself is a reason to patronize them.

I was looking for stupid comments to fisk, and found only one commenter who really qualified:

"You know why Wal-Mart costs less? 'cause they don't have to pay janitors and cleaning people at all.......
I'd pay double for better service, merchandise, and cleanliness anyday.
There's my two cents..."

Posted by: Angry Commie on May 18, 2003 08:12 PM

"Hmm... I'll go at this by numbers, cause I have so much letters of admiration to look at...

1. I wasn't trying to act like a commie, why should I?
2. My Wal-Mart is the farthest from "kid-friendy" as possible. It never had, and never will have small carts

that kids can push around. It is just a dirty, unservicable place.
3. I just assumed it had Bob the Builder books. I don't know...
4. I'd sure be willing to pay that much (cheap college?) to get a college education. Then, you can

get what we call a job... and make money...

Anything I missed?"

Posted by: Angry Commie on May 19, 2003 09:04 AM

"Ah, yes, the most important number, ...

5. I would sacrafice Wal-Mart's low prices for quality and service, as well as a friendly environment.

It is quite obvious that your Wal-Marts are better than my local one. Mine is crap, you all's appear to be at

least in mint condition.

Another complaint I have against them, since it is so popular (God knows why...), the parking lot is

constantly full, and I have to park across the street. Why bother doing that, and going through all of the

trouble, when I can drive to Target, which is closer to my house anyway, and find a spot?"

Posted by: Angry Commie on May 19, 2003 09:09 AM

------------------------------

Full Disclosure: I am a Wal-Mart employee (peak time evenings, in addition to a daytime job and weekend job)

and former anywhere-but-Wal-Mart-shopper.

Wal-Mart sells what people buy, period. If it don't sell, it ain't at Wal-Mart, at least not for long.

Wal-Mart sets its vendors against each other in wholesome capitalistic competition. If Vendor A wants to

sell a widget for $4, and Vendor B has a comparable widget for $3, Wal-Mart will let them compete until one

of the vendors taps out, and the other gets the sale, and Wal-Mart gets the widget so cheap that they are

selling at 40% margin and still selling below Mom & Pop's cost. Also, they're buying so much that the

winning vendor makes many times their projected profit even though their profit-per-item is low.

Most of the time, Wal-Mart will take the second vendor's widget anyway, in lesser quantities, to 1) make the

first widget's value more apparent on the shelf 2) to encourage both vendors to reduce costs futher and 3) to

make the few people who will only buy the second, more expensive widget happy that it's at Wal-Mart for $0.10

less than Target because even though that elitist customer says they never shop at Wal-Mart, they do,

often enough, and even though that mush-brained fashion-oriented customer says they'll gladly pay more

somewhere else for (marginally) better quality and high fashion, they'll gladly buy it at Wal-Mart

instead, since they're there anyway, to save a mere dime.

------------------------------

There are basically two types of Wal-Mart stores: the regular store, and the Supercenter. Supercenters were

created to answer the biggest complaints from customers: dirty stores, poor service, out-of-stocks, and

selection. The difference between older stores and Supercenters is much greater than the apparent grocery

section and overall larger store. Supercenters have a Maintenance department that is in charge of keeping

every customer area of the store clean and in outstanding condition. An average Maintenance

department consists of 4-6 janitors, 1-3 floor cleaners (night shift), and 1-2 repair people. Supercenters

hire so many people that most of them stand around until a customer needs help (which makes me really

suspicious of former-Supercenter-employees who complain about low pay when theres close to 50% down-time in a

well-run, clean Supercenter, but I digress). Supercenters are built around Perpetual Inventory, which has

its flaws, but keeps the shelves filled with the most demanded merchandise about 99% of the time in the worse

case, and keeps the shelves neat and tidy. Finally, since Supercenters are so large, they can stock many

items that only sell to niche shoppers, but that also illustrate the value of other products on the shelf to

the average shopper.

The current trend is for Wal-Mart to place a Supercenter in the demographic center of every area currently

serviced by 4-8 regular stores, and then to close those regular stores. Later, more Supercenters and

"Neighborhood Markets" will re-fill the gaps.

------------------------------

I would love to shop in a Kid-Friendly(tm) environment where multitudes of children clog the aisles of a

150,000 sqft retail store with kiddie-size carts while the employees of the store help babysit for

irresponsible parents who let their small children push said kiddie-size carts which will invariably end up

in peoples' shins, shelves, endcaps, clothes racks, etc.

------------------------------

Bob the Builder sells. Oh, does it sell. There are even Bob the Builder garden tool sets for kids (plastic

shovels, tool belt, and gloves) at Wal-Mart. Blessed are the Capitalists, who art in Wal-Mart, for stocking

such a margin-inflating brand as Bob the Builder

------------------------------

I don't understand #4, I didn't follow the comment thread that close I suppose, but what's wrong with working

at Wal-Mart? Low pay? Expensive benefits? Hard work? All compounded? If fewer people would prostitute

their labor for $6.00 per hour, Wal-Mart might be forced to raise their pay rates. I personally am overpaid

for my job at Wal-Mart, where others who make more in the same position feel underpaid (because they have

families and expect a retail sales job to pay all the bills, and it doesn't). I would never work somewhere

that did not overpay me. The trick is that, relative to the market, i'm cheap. Wal-Mart is getting

my customer service expertise, my common sense, and my warm body for next to nothing compared to what it's

worth, but I rarely have to use it. Remember the 50% downtime thing? Spend a few hours in Wal-Mart and

watch a few sales associates for a little while, see what they do, how much "work" gets done, and ask

yourself if you'd pay them $6.00 per hour for that. Then realize that those employees are probably making

$7.00 per hour. And that's cheap. Cleanliness and Service issues are a function of underpaid Managers who

were promoted because they let themselves be prostituted for low pay in exchange for a job title, and who

don't give two squeals about their job or their store. My store has them, every retail store in the world

has them. Now you know why. Well run stores have managers that care, and thus employees that care, and thus

everyone realizes that the better the store runs, the less overall work has to be done. Happy employees are

the ones who aren't prostituting their labor, for a percieved lack of alternatives or any other reason. If

you aren't happy with your job, then why haven't you made it possible for you to quit? I can quit my job at

any second, and it took hard work to get to that point, and I'm happier for it.

------------------------------

I will always shop at competing stores, because there are factors besides price that must be considered when

making a shopping decision. I went to Target yesterday because it was closer, and I knew I would get out

faster. This made the $5 extra that I spent (I spent $15) worth it, because I was crunched for time. i

regret being in that position, as I'm $5 poorer for my lack of planning, but I understand it and will either

fix it and prosper, or not fix it and keep being crunched for time and keep overpaying for items I could have

bought earlier for less. When I go to Wal-Mart, I always park as far from the building as I can. This does

lots of things, such as protecting my car from errant buggies, it's exercise, whatever, but most importantly

it means I can be parked and in the store faster than the impatient lazy person who circles the parking lot,

clogging the flow of traffic, trying to get a closer spot.

Bottom line, if you don't like walking, keep going to the empty, more expensive stores, or buy a Lark.

- FirstSpeaker

Scott I need spellcheck.

You all see my speeling errors and because I know you are all intelligent (I can tell by your posts) understand what I really meant to say.

Perhaps Wal-Mart's suppliers are doomed because they must continually reduce their profits to keep selling...
But aren't falling prices the best incentive to improve productivity, i.e., real wages and GDP? Besides, if Bob's Peanut Butter Co. goes out of business because they are selling to Wal-Mart, what do I care? It's capitalism. Until, of course, Wal-Mart becomes a monopsony and enslaves us all.
I suppose Bob would care.

FMM

Some of these blatherings are mystifying, simply mystifying.
LPB sez: If you shop at WalMart, you are stupid.
The basis for this charge (I guess, b/c LPB is no beacon of clarity) is that the WalMart customer is paying less for a given product than the product's cost of production. (Are we talking marginal or pro rata cost I wonder).
I guess that there could be a parallel dimension where paying less and getting more is a bad deal for the person receiving the goods and giving up the dough, but in my America, that's what we call a "good deal" not "stupid" Pay less, Get More! Whee!

Or maybe we should feel badly about slave laborers. Well, I do. But what to do? If LPB is correct about the volumes of money transferring from China to NK, the question arises, "Would the human beings in NK be better off if there were even LESS of the do-re-mi?"
I do not think so.

Count me among the great unwashed ignorant Wally World shoppers. I wouldnít buy my toiletries, cleaning supplies or paper goods anywhere else. Why? Because itís a whole lot cheaper than Kmart of Target - 10%-30% depending on the item.

I would probably do my grocery shopping at Wal-Mart, but alas, we donít have a super Wal-Mart around here.

Clothes I buy at Kohls, from the final discount rack -- 70% off the original sales price, now thatís my kind of shopping!

I purchase books where ever I find them. Some people complain about the big box bookstores, but until B&N; and Borders opened in this area, there were no bookstores.

Darth

I'm merely listing a number of sources, I usually check 6 or so that I've found veritable. And yes, the truth is somewhere in the middle, most of the time.

There's nothing wrong with working at Wal-Mart, and I, personally, didn't work for them, I was simply implementing a partnership with another far more evil corporation, for which I worked at the time. You know, one that makes it it's business to make sure that you stay in debt by buying junk you don't need - there's a partnership made in heaven. Now I work for a somewhat less evil corporation, although our business is based on the fact that you will die. At least you don't have to die in debt, I suppose...

Anyways... As part of my prior life, I got a chance to see some very interesting things, both at the stores, and at the corporate offices, that most people don't have access to. But you don't need access to that type of information to understand what's going on, and FirstSpeaker does a fairly good job at a micro level.

LPB

JAGCAP - paying less and getting more is great, as long as it doesn't hurt you in the long-run. As far as your NK comment goes... WOW, you just made my point about Wal-Mart shoppers! :)

CPat - got a CostCo anywhere near?

LPB

As somebody smarter than me once observed: "In the long run we are all dead."
As for the rest of your post...

WAAH! I doan get it...

Please take the logic OUT of the penalty box, at least a few rudimentary bits, and use it to explain how I made your point about WalMart shoppers. (Try using IF-THEN statements, that end with a THEREFORE!)
[Lemme think, people in rich country pay money to people in poor country the whole of which resembles a slave labor camp. People in poor country get miniscule amount of the money. People in rich country should:
A. Stop buying stuff from poor country to protest outrageous exploitation & bask in moral purity while poor country people nobly and in culturally appropriate ways die/eat grass/suffer even more.
B. Keep buying stuff from poor country and hold unannounced inspections, etc, to curb the worst abuses.

In the search for a larger profit margin, corporations will keep looking for cheap labor sources. Frankly, they don't care about local pay scales and humane working conditions. Why should they? These things really don't factor into the bottom line. Government regulations concerning overseas trade force the corporations to follow certain minimum standards. Period, the end.
The corporation's purpose and duty is to maintain and/or increase the value of the shares. It has no moral duty. The corporation is an artificial entity created to shield shareholders from personal liability.
If the board of directors wants to do something more than the government required minimum in wages and working condition, it is a decision that has to be taken and justified in the boardroom.
Not on capital hill.
Lefties can whine all they want to Congress about sweat-shops, and threaten boycotts (which may work), but it is up to the board of directors to decide.

JAG

Works fine, until you consider that the people in NK never get a whiff of that money. And trying to be 'realistic' about these sort of things only works when they don't affect you. That kinda 'realistic' approach sure worked in Iraq. It was quite logical, I'm sure.

As for me, I'll put the logic back into the LogicPenaltyBox :)

LPB

SRG - Totally in agreement with you, on the fact that it's up to the Board of Directors to decide. Of course the achille's heel of this process was quite apparent with Andersen, Enron, WorldCom, Tyco, ...

LPB

***NEVER

When you do...there's a transdermal occurence that takes place and you'll be "infected" with stupid.

Please believe me!

You can check it by going to what would in "normal" stores be the blood pressure checking machine....and find out on this Sammies IQ-meter that you've done had some SERIOUS stupid slapped into you....well handshaked into you!

And NEVER accept any taste samples of food....They stole the patent from Willy Wonka's chocoate factory that turned that once little girl into a rollng, blueberry telletubby....remember?

It's in ALL their food.

So even if you as a normal sized, highly intelligent and sophisticated individual have found yourself aimlessly having wandered into a Wal Mart.... You are SET UP to come out a fat and stoopid Oompa Loompa.

Please BELIEVE!

LPB,

Says....

"Again, exactly what does North Korea supply the Chinese that's worth $400MM/yr? The only thing it can, manual labor. It'd be at best naive to believe that at least a part of this $400MM/yr is not paid for the manual labor coming out of the slave camps. "

From Reuters today:

"Officials and experts say the United States and its allies could have a major impact on North Korean leaders by cutting off the exports of missiles, illegal drugs and counterfeit bills that provide the hard currency that keeps them afloat."

AND From the Joongang Daily (Korea's largest daily newspaper):

http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200305/10/200305100309152339900090309031.html

"North Korea?ÿs total trade last year was $2.3 billion, down very slightly from its trade figure in 2001. China was North Korea?ÿs largest trading partner; the North?ÿs exports to China, mostly fisheries and textile products, grew by $104 million last year."

I know those black helicopters are distracting, but try to ignore them. It appears N. Korea exports to China are mostly textiles and fisheries. In addition N. Korea keeps afloat by missile sales, and illegal counterfeiting and drug trade. (Barely afloat, the reports of starvation and mass suicide are frightening. N. Korea has to be the most repressive regime in the last 50 years.)

To put it simply, YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT to equate N. Korea and China.

ITEM 2:

"And please don't insult my intelligence (or apparent lack of there of) by avering that a large majority of products coming from China are not made in what would be classified as 'sweatshops'. "

How many Chinese factories have you ever been in? I've been to quite a few in the last 12 years.

How many times have you been to China in the last year? I've been to China at least 3 times on business in the last 12 months.

How often have you sat in during an inspection/audit of a Chinese company by a US customer? Were you there when they interviewed the employees privately?

Did you see the reports written on the factory? Were you there when they checked to make sure the employees were of age? When they checked the dormitory? When they checked the cafeteria? When they checked the safety and quality records?

I've worked with both major retailers mentioned here. I have personally been a part of this process.

I assure you there are controls in place to make sure the products you buy from big box retailers are from reputable companies.

Have there been sweatshops? Sure. Both overseas and in the US. Do they supply major corporations? I can't imagine how they could get away with it with the controls that have been put in place in the last 10+ years.

Don't try to blow smoke at me and these fine people when you have no clue what you are talking about.

I love the Chinese people. You can't beat their hospitality. You can't beat their work ethic. Oh, and by the way, I'm an American business woman.

A business owner who needs to get back to work.

glorybbb

P.S. Don't be surprised you don't find much positive about China companies in the manistream press. They write with an agenda, just like you do.

Okay, some people love Wal-Mart, some people hate it.

Can we all agree it's better than K-Mart?

glory:

First of all, it does seem like you're writing from a position of extreme interest. You sure got me beat on going to China... However, I peg you as one of the 'useful idiots' (per Leo Lenin) I spent my childhood watching wandering about the Evil Empire. Simply put, you're too naive to understand what goes on inside a repressive state, because to you it doesn't compute. I do have about 13 years of experience on you there.

YOU WILL NEVER see what the Chinese government doesn't want you to see. YOU WILL NEVER hear what the Chinese government doesn't want you to hear. YOU WILL NEVER feel what the Chinese government doesn't want you to feel, unless it's a SARS epidemic.

So please don't try to white wash the Chinese government, since it's repression techniques are only slightly ahead of Kim Jong Mentally Il. Do you actually believe the amounts that are reported through major government outlets in China and NK? If you do, there's some oceanfront property in Arizona I'd like to sell you.

I'm not above dealing with the devil, as I've worked for some extremely reputable and extremely evil companies. However, you should at least understand what you're dealing with, not rationalize it.

LPB

btw, Target and Costco rock :)

this is one of the unfunniest pieces of writing I have ever read. Goodnight.

It is obvious we must believe Frenchman's Female Imposter...she shook frenchman's hand, which how they met, and now she is suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.

Phil,
That Wally World that we used to patronize is now gone. That AWFUL little burg with Route 66 going through it now has a Cracker Barrel, a Super Wally World and a new Pizza Hut. The Spur, I think it is that German restaurant, is still there, hidden behind the ugliness created by the committee of fifty.

You were there for three years? I remember as recently as last year organizing shopping safaris to Springfield, Columbia and Jeff City.

The peace and quiet will KILL YOU. The closest city that has anything to do after 9 pm is St. Louis, STILL.

And I miss it so much my teeth ache. I loved the country.

Were you an engineer or in the infantry?

LPB says.....

"However, I peg you as one of the 'useful idiots' (per Leo Lenin) I spent my childhood watching wandering about the Evil Empire. Simply put, you're too naive to understand what goes on inside a repressive state, because to you it doesn't compute."

So now that I'm completely discredited your N. Korea/sweatshop theory you take a huge leap off topic, implying that because I know the purchasing policies of large US retailers, I am too naive to understand anything else about China?

LOL

In case you missed it, China relaxed its invesment laws in the 80's. This led to a huge increase in investment. Literally thousands of joint ventures were established, and many of the Chinese people went to work for private companies.

These companies are the fuel that are generating growth in the economy, (pre-SARS. 7-9% according to China or 3.5 - 10% Goldman Sachs estimate from mid '90's to now.) State companies are failing right and left and are less and less of the GNP every year. A middle class has emerged.

All of my business in China has been with the private sector. I have no contact with the government except for crossing the border.

My relationship and experience is with the people of China.

"So please don't try to white wash the Chinese government, since it's repression techniques are only slightly ahead of Kim Jong Mentally Il."

My comments had nothing to do with the Chinese government. Where you got that idea I have no clue. My comments were limited to the subject at hand; sweat shops supplying large US retailers, and we already established that it's not happening. Controls are in place to make sure it won't happen. US retailers have too much to lose.

Am I naive about China's government? Not at all. China does not tolerate political dissent or religious freedom. The press is not free. My eyes are wide open.

But, I think you have limited your view of China to what fits your agenda.

You are wrong to compare today's China with N. Korea.

Think about it. China has thousands of foreigners in and out on a daily basis.

China has changed and will continue to change. Believe it or not, our presence there is a force for good.

China has joined WTO which will bring reform. As awful as SARS is, it too may bring more openness from the government.

North Korea is a completely closed society who is literally starving its population to death. North Korea is stuck in a nightmare we can't even imagine. There is no comparison.

First (moronic) Speacker... for one thing, I didn't even both to read the entirty of your post, try minimizing things a bit in the future, neh?

Why did you have a line break every two lines? Just curious, cause it got annoying. That is, it was annoying, until I got the jist of your post. And stopped reading it. You should help people with sleep disorders. You almost put me to sleep, try it on them sometime. You could do something with your life.

Let's see... I don't like being called stupid... and most of that that I posted (and you generously copied and pasted, not missing a single word, good for you!), was an exaggeration, because I know they hire janitors, but so does the school, and why is the paper that we left there over the weekend still on the floor where we left it? I'm not even going to rebut your post, cause I didn't bother to read it. I have my priorities, and reading his boring, lengthy, and non-sensical post is not top on my list.

Well, saddly enough, I went through and read his post (which sould have been shortened if the break every two lines was eleminated...), and you have some good points. However, money is not an issue where I am concerned, I am funded by other means than a job, even though I hold one. The Wal-Mart I go to is a SuperCenter, and, if it has all these wonders, how is it that the Target, a few blocks away, still runs wonderfully? Could it be because I live in a well-off part of town (the esteemed "West-End"), and we well-off persons will gladly sacrafice the dirty floors and poor customer service of Wal-Mart, along with the lower prices, for a clean, well-run Target, who has a bit higher prices?

You see, the vast popularity of Wal-Mart is caused by it's appeal to the working class person. He is in a crunch for money, and is willing to shop at a Wal-Mart (with all the problems I have mentioned) for the better prices. He can't shop at the Target, where the said $5 extra will leave him, say, with $50 less crowding his wallet. Now, in the well-off neighborhoods like mine, people are disgusted by Wal-Mart's crowded parking lots and floors, so will gladly give up the pricing for Target, which they can afford.

I repeat myself to much. See what you made me do?!

GloryBBB,

Great, insightful points. Unfortunately, your debating partner, LPB, is not exaclty hearing your point. Something must be getting garbled in translation to Korean. Must be that "evil corporation" LPB worked for.

That actually explains a lot. How can you be objective if you think every company you work for is evil. It must put almost as much a strain on you as it does you credibility.

LPB, why don't you SUPPLY your services through your own company if your in such DEMAND.

Hey, there's that supply and demand thing popping up again.

While you're at it, maybe you could explain how SK has enjoyed economic success while NK suffers.

Firstly, apologies to everyone for the extra line breaks in my comment above, my text editor added them in when I was creating that comment, and I couldn't get them all to come out in the form provided below. I suppose I should have apologized earlier to avoid annoying Angry Commie, but then, I was putting him to sleep, which must have been the state he was in when he actually read the whole comment, because he obviously doesn't get it, and anyway, I really didn't mean to attack him directly until I got about 4 paragraphs into my comment, and even then, pointing out someone's stupidity isn't an attack, but I should have been more civil as I am a humble guest on this comment page, allowed to post by the grace of ScrappleFace, and for my lack of civility I further apologize to everyone.

Now, I'll get a line-break filter when Angry Commie gets a spell-checker.

I do help people with sleep disorders. I employ them (for slave wages) and work them until they lust for sleep.

I am doing something with my life. Today was the day I got engaged, and my apologies were untimely because when I was writing my original comment, I should have been writing code, and it was time for me to rendezvous with my future when I was done with that comment. I'm busy pulling down a salary fit to take care of the family I'm working to build, so that we can afford to spend a little extra time to fight through the proles and go to the Wal-Mart on Saturday and enjoy the dim, dusty aisles of cold, evil Capitalism. I'm going to help spread the tentacles of the free market across the globe, and I'm going to become filthy rich in the process, and my family will prosper, and my kids will be better than yours, unless you too are an Evil Capitalist with Evil Capitalist Spawn.

Exaggeration? This post is exaggeration, your post was not. Re-read it, and try to post it again such that the exaggeration is not lost on those, like myself, who only saw a pitiful attempt at badmouthing without any comprehension of the subject being badmouthed.

Writing this comment isn't on the top of my list of priorities, but I've completed all my other priorities for the day, and my new fiancee is busy doing other things at the moment, so I have a few minutes to spare, so why not exercise the ol' thought muscle? Well, as much as this is exercise.

Sadly enough, Angry Commie must have finished his priority list as well, because he did read all of my earlier comment. I suppose the extra line breaks didn't deter him (good for him!). So, I continue...

Money is the only issue as far as I'm concerned. Everything else is either absolute, or it's relative to money. It would be oh, so very convenient if I was funded by means other than a job (note to self: grammar check). I can think of a few: inheritance, welfare check, retirement pension, lucrative embezzlement scheme. Two of those are honorable (the first and the third for those of you in Buckhead, GA). I wonder how Angry Commie is funded. Since he lives in the fabled "West-End", there's no telling I suppose.

Maybe the local Wal-Mart doesn't appeal to the well-off West-End'ers (WOWE's) as a place of employment, being the stigma the WOWE's put on it. Maybe the not-so-well-off Other-End'ers (NSWOOE's) don't want to work there either, what with there probably being a nicer Wal-Mart near them; why put up with snooty WOWE's in a dirty store?

The WOWE's can't be all that well-off if they're paying above-market prices for everything at Target. But wait, my premise is obviously flawed, since the West-End Wal-Mart store is always so busy that people have to park across the street, and Target is always only partly busy. Angrie Commie, you had better watch out, or your well-off lifestyle may be in jeopardy due to your unwise purchasing decisions.

You see, the vast popularity of Wal-Mart is not due to its appeal (note to self: homonym checker) to the Working Class person. The last time I checked, people are either Children, Working Class, Retired, Incapacitated, or Welfare Saps. Wal-Mart markets to children, employs retirees for $6.00 plus, per hour, for standing and smiling, is compiant with all Federal and Local codes regarding access for handicapped persons, and, AND, Wal-Mart gladly accepts food stamps and WIC. But Angry Commie is some other class, not Working Class, for he is funded by other means. I guess that since he thinks he gets his money for free, he's free to just blow it on extravagances like a teenager with a Symbol terminal that can check the in-stocks of the newest Target fashions in a clean ('cause it ain't shopped) Target store, where those who work hard for their money will look forward to spending it at Wal-Mart despite the dirty conditions because they know they won't be ripped off when they make their purchase.

People who spend more for convenience when convenience is not of the essence are stupid. What makes you so important, Angry Commie, that you cannot be inconvenienced by 10-30 minutes when you go shopping? Or do you shop for everything on the fly, as you need it? People who do not plan their shopping habits are stupid, as I was stupid for having to go to Target the last time I went, and I'm going to try very hard not to be stupid about that in the future, and I was really overcharged $6: $5 extra for the $10 market value of merchandise, and I missed out on my $1 employee discount. I was 20% more stupid than my original analysis indicated, and I'm 20% more embarrassed.

See what you made me do? I get to be even less stupid in the future, with the same amount of effort. Can Angry Commie top that?

First Speaker,
Thanks for your post. I live between two Super Centers. One is older, and a little shabbier, but it is well loved. It is clean, and the shelves, when I have gone in at night or the wee hours, are dress right and dress left and the floors are gleaming.

The other store is so brand new that the pain still looks wet. There are price differences in the two stores, of about two cents more for certain items, but since they charge more and my old shabby one is less expensive, that is where I go.

I have bought my current quilting and sewing mags there, as well as a paperback edition of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire.

When dh was getting ready to deploy, he and I went to Wal Mart to get some last minute things, and when I sent my first boxes out to him, I got the treats and comforts there as well.

I go to other stores like Target, and Belks, Ross, Kohl's etc. and I do spend some $$$. But overall, I keep going back to Wal Mart because of the selection and price.

You are right on the money. I wish you every happiness in your upcoming marriage and congratulations on it as well.

First and Cricket:

First, the nice post. Convenience is important to people who prioritize money differently than you do. While you can't understand why they seem to think they're so important, they can't understand why you seem so cheap. In the real world, neither perception is true, unless you allow your perception to control reality.

LPB

Put those Chinese, Korean, Indonesian, etc. kids back in the sweatshops! Lazy little buggers think they can loll about only working 10 to 12 hours a day. I'll fix 'em: 16 hour work days with no toilet breaks!
I want cheap mass produced goods, and I want them now!

Dear Logic Penalty Box: Again with the "I'm so smart and all of you are so stupid" routine. No one understands basic economics but you? What? Are you trying to win a gold medal on the Olympic Snobbery team? A tiny bit of advice from someone who has spent 35 years convincing people of ideas to which they were initially resistant: Don't alienate those whom you would convince, because you cannot convince those whom you have alienated.

The contributors to this forum seem to be pretty intelligent compared to others to which I have contributed. I think that they are capable of absorbing Econ 101.

Dear LPB: By the way, perception always controls reality. If you don't believe me, ask Plato.

LPB,
Okay. You are right. I am one dumb bunny when it comes to money. I scrimp and save and for what?
My kids' higher education? Retirement? Gee, what would I want to do that for? I can count on Social Security and the pension from Uncle Sam, right?

I shop at Wal Mart for the convenience of saving my money and to be self reliant...lessee, the loss leaders? Half the time time loss leaders I see are not things I would buy to begin with.

I do most of my cooking from scratch. The result of that is better food for me and my family as well as quality time I get to spend with my children.

The money I save also allows me to get the kids to the dentist twice a year. I am pleased to note that by feeding them properly, cavities are non existant...four cavities and five kids...lessee, that means I saved over a grand by INCONVENIENCING myself. I think we call that sweat equity.

I do a lot of other hands on things as well, and have found that Wal Mart is NOT the fabric or yarn or fiber store of my dreams. So, I go to the places that offer things like silk, and wool jersey as well as denim and muslin. You ever wear a hand spun hand knit 100% alpaca sweater? Try pricing one. Or hand knit socks? Custom made for your feet? Didn't think so. But I love doing these things for my family and they love seeing what grows from the carders and the wheel and needles into something just for them.

And the MONEY I save from not having to pay highway robbery fees allows me to dress my family and feed them to a higher standard.

Wal Mart has improved the quality of my life with their trickle down savings, and volume buying means that they are able to get it at a good price and pass it on to me.

I also live 35 miles from the closest commissary, which does save 25% over the local competition. However, the two commissaries that I have access to do not have the selection that Wal Mart does and they do study the competition to see if they can compete...which I find laughable, as DECA can buy with the same volume Wal Mart does, and they charge about the same for the same items, but I end up paying a 5% surcharge where some states don't tax you for the necessity of eating.

One more thing: You are a member of Costco? If they save you soooo much money, then why do you pay money for a discount? Have you recouped your membership fee and then some in the money you saved? Because if you have not, you either broke even or lost money...for the convenience of it.

Now, you said you worked for WalMart at the corporate level. Were you a buyer? I find that ironic that you would spend more at Target for the same item for what? I think you had a bad employment experience with them.

Now, for the not so nice (I just spent 1.5 hrs in traffic so you'll spend 1.5 hrs reading it) post, and it goes out to glorybbb and Ilia.

I'll go slow, not skipping any if/then clauses, so that you don't get lost around the sharp turns.

"So now that I'm completely discredited your N. Korea/sweatshop theory you take a huge leap off topic, implying that because I know the purchasing policies of large US retailers, I am too naive to understand anything else about China?"

First of all, you haven't discredited my sweatshop theory, as I was still arguing as to why the numbers and sources you're quoting to try and discredit it are somewhat flawed. Please try to follow the argument. EVERY single source you're quoting has a serious conflict of interest

After all, these companies, as well as news agencies like Reuters, would never report lies in order to insure that they're still doing business with China. After all, just because CNN did that in Iraq, doesn't mean others are doing it in other repressive states, right? That's at best naive.

Second. U.S. companies would NEVER deal with known sweatshops, because that'd be against their policies, and these policies are in place because it would harm a company's image to do otherwise, right?. The demand for products from Nike and Reebok has suffered immesurably since it became public knowledge that they use sweatshops to produce their shoes. The furor over their practices lasted all of about 15 minutes, until the next news cycle hit. The US consumer didn't really care, since it wasn't happening in their back yard. So there is absolutely no viable benefit/cost analysis to back up your assessment that companies would not want to use these sweatshops, as long as it could claim plausible deniability. That's right, they have a policy against that, so it's a few rotten apples that would get canned when the next such news story breaks out and manages to catch the public's attention.

"In case you missed it, China relaxed its invesment laws in the 80's. This led to a huge increase in investment.
Literally thousands of joint ventures were established, and many of the Chinese people went to work for private companies."

Relaxation of investment laws has certainly benefited some of the Chinese people, most of them in the large cities. However, the benefits have been fairly small, as several news sources have documented, and most of these private companies would be considered sweatshops here, in the USA. After all, earning hardly enough to afford the cost of a bullets for their firing squad execution, should these people relax their guard and tell you what they really think does not seem in line with Adam Smith's vision.

"These companies are the fuel that are generating growth in the economy, (pre-SARS. 7-9% according to China or 3.5 - 10%
Goldman Sachs estimate from mid '90's to now.) State companies are failing right and left and are less and less of the
GNP every year. A middle class has emerged."

It's quite disconcerting that you'd rely on data from the Chinese government. Goldman Sachs' estimate may be more accurate, though a 3.5-10% is a huge range for GNP fluctuation, and should at least raise an eyebrow.

If I recall correctly, EVERY joint business venture, whether it's GM, Motorola, or Coca Cola, runs through a Chinese partner who is handpicked by the government. So while they cannot be called 'state-run', they are certainly state-controlled.

The emergence of middle class in China is not a new phenomenon. Let me cite a bit of history here. There has been a middle class in China for about 3000 years. That's right, thgough the dynasties, through the Mongol invations, through the Western colonization attempts, and even through the Communists. Mao tried to stamp it out back in the 60's with his cultural revolution, with somewhat limited success.

However... While they are the 'middle class' when compared to the rest of the Chinese people's condition, and they are an insignificant part of this argument. Why? Well, since only ~15% of the population lives in the cities (per last census), and not all of them are part of this 'new' middle class. I'm leaving out Hong Kong and Taiwan, even though the Chinese government doesn't. So maybe 10% or less of the population are part of this group you're referring to as 'middle class'. So it hasn't emerged, it's still in the laerval (sp?) state, and it's not able to influence policies of the Chinese government, which makes it insignificant.

The government, at any time, is able to take everything these people have worked so hard and so long for away. Which leads us to your next couple of lines:

"All of my business in China has been with the private sector. I have no contact with the government except for crossing the border.

My relationship and experience is with the people of China. My comments had nothing to do with the Chinese government. Where you got that idea I have no clue."

Let me clue you in then. Because you're dealing with people who know that everything that they've worked so hard and long for could be taken away for saying the wrong thing, especially to a foreigner, YOU ARE dealing with the government of China. Please don't be naive to think that there are no 'handlers' around you - there are. And there are plenty of people around who'd like nothing more than to turn their fellow citizens in because it's their duty, and because they are rewarded for it.

I think we all saw what the Chinese people really want back in 1989, and we all remember the outcome. I'd wager that the Chinese people remember it better than people in the West. They also remember what the West did to help them in 1989.

"My comments were limited to the subject at hand; sweat shops supplying large US retailers, and we already established that it's not happening. Controls are in place to make sure it won't happen. US retailers have too much to lose."

Please see above as to why that's not necessarily so.

"Am I naive about China's government? Not at all. China does not tolerate political dissent or
religious freedom. The press is not free. My eyes are wide open."

Or wide shut, as the case may be.

"But, I think you have limited your view of China to what fits your agenda."

What exactly is my agenda in this case? You should stop looking for hidden agenda and start reading what I'm writing.

"You are wrong to compare today's China with N. Korea. Think about it. China has thousands of foreigners in and out on a daily basis. "

North Korea has foreigners in and out on a daily basis as well, perhaps not to the scale of China, but then NK doesn't really scale with China. There's plenty of people who go there and return with harrowing stories, if the mainstream press would only listen. Mind you, I'm not saying China is as bad today as NK is to their people. Chinese went through that phase in the middle of the 20th century (1949 - 1967), as did USSR, Cambodia, Eastern Europe and other 'worker's paradises'. North Korea never left that phase.
But that doesn't mean that China can't go back there, and 1989 and recent clamp downs on FG stands as a rather stark reminder of that. So the comparison is apt.

"China has changed and will continue to change. Believe it or not, our presence there is a force for good. China has joined WTO which will bring reform. As awful as SARS is, it too may bring more openness from the government."

I'm not arguing that our presence there is not a force for good. What I am getting at, is that we need to recognize what we're dealing with and call the Chinese on account every single time, and on every single thing, rather than close our eyes to their abuses because of their unsightly neighbor or of their changing investment laws that benefit us.

As far as openness from the government goes, only time will tell, but their handling of the SARS epidemic does not inspire confidence.

"North Korea is a completely closed society who is literally starving its population to death. North Korea is stuck in a nightmare we can't even imagine. There is no comparison."

I don't disagree with the 1st sentence. However, the fact that you can't imagine what it's like there, doesn't imply that others can't. I can, for one, since my family lived through 3 similar nightmares in the last 60 years. There is a comparison between the two, regardless of how much you'd like to imagine the inconvenient facts away.

Finally. Ilia, to understand what sarcasm means I recommend the Webster's dictionary. As far as my services being in demand, I still have a job :)

LPB

Cricket:

First, I don't begrudge you saving money in the short term. Several people have brought this point up. I'm merely pointing out that your actions/spending decisions affect other people.

Yes I am a member of Costco, and the membership does pay for itself every year. The prices are cheaper than Sam's club, merchandise is better quality than WM. Usually comes out to ~$200/yr in savings over prices posted in WM ads, for $45 membership fee, so it's a wash. I'd probably save more, if my family was larger, but at this point, I'll gladly take the savings and business away from WM.

LPB

Joseph:

Right on, but I'm not really trying to convince anyone in this case, so I don't really care about alienating them. I can't convince them of anything, because the people I'm arguing with know better, and they obviously know more. So I'm just having fun needling them and poking big holes in their arguments.

A few have decided that my original post was serious, so I treated their responses seriously, at times.

As far as Plato is concerned, I think Popper did a much better job of debunking his views than I ever could.

LPB

**** Peter Popper picked a Plato of pickled poppers!

-----a special tribute to Joseph & LPB---------

... (popper preference is not pickled but with cream cheese).

OXYGEN!! must have OXYGEN!!...protein shake iv'd to me, please....Dr. Stuhl??????

I post just to see my words in print.

My mother will be so proud of me I am now a published author.

Signed LPB (Impersonator)

I don't know what the heck you're all talking about... The Wal-Mart I go to is never dirty, and has great prices. I've also never seen much dirt in K-Mart, (there was some, but your reaction to it seems like the head waiter's response to the dirty fork)

Walmart: we exploit children in asia to bring you the cheapest crap in America...has anyone actually read Ann Coulter? I thought she was a joke. Guess the joke's on me.

little timmy

I have a great book on relationships that WalMart has not onsidered.